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Religious to grant Vet L1?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by RogueJello, Jan 2, 2019.

  1. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Just some harmless rules speculation, for a possible N4, whenever that occurs.

    During N2 Religious was much more useful than it currently is. "In a Loss of Lieutenant situation the player has got, not only the 2 Orders Reserve, but too the Impetuous Orders and those Orders given by figures with the Religious Troop Special Skill, which only them can use."

    As things currently stand Religious is a mixed blessing, resulting in trooper that cannot take cover, even when it's the their advantage to do so. However models like the Order Sergeants are still paying N2 prices for the Religious skill. A quick comparison between the Nomad Securitate will show nearly identical profiles, with nearly identical costs, but with the much more useful Vet L1.

    Would it make sense for Religious to also grant Vet L1?
     
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Being religious or righteous has nothing to do with the inability to being isolated, which is arguably the more important and more powerful aspect of the Veteran skill.
     
  3. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Well, it would be a good way to solve MO Lt issue and make morat players angrier space monkeys at the same time :joy:
     
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  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The problem is that Order Sergeants are paying 2 extra points for CC15 compared to a Securitate's CC13, nothing else.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    A quick cross-cross-comparison with Celestial Guards tell us that Religious doesn't really cost anything (unlike Veteran), and digging through a few Haqq profiles I distinctly get the feeling that occasionally it acts as a discount.

    I think for N4 that failing the Guts Roll should instead be more disadvantageous rather than trying to patch a skill that quite honestly is a zero-sum trade for zero points. (That is, what I'm saying is that maybe it's the courage effect that's a bit weak rather than tacking on LOL-protection)
     
  6. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I'm also pretty sure all Morat players would implode if every religious faction now functioned the same as the Morats, while they remained overcosted for having two rules that did the same thing
     
  7. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Is it? My understanding is that Isolated occurs as a result of E/M ammo, Jammers, and the two hacking programs, one of which can't target anything outside of the usual HI,TAG, REM, Hacker targets, and the other is on the CA EVO hacker and targets members of a link team. So it would be a small boost on the one religious TAG, the Seraph, and much more significant on the Religious HI.

    For LI like OS you're almost invariably better off just shooting them dead. Jammers are on units that also have access to other ranged weapons which would kill them, same with most E/M direct fire weapons, which really only leaves spec firing an E/M grenade launcher, on the few models that still have one.

    So I really think the ability to ignore LoL is the more powerful of the too, with the exception of HI.

    So maybe this is a problem unique to Order Sgts, who should be given Vet L1 (in keeping with the fluff) or a 2 pt discount?
     
  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Having an entire army ignore half the scoring of a particular ITS mission is pretty powerful. Having multiple factions ignore half the scoring of an ITS missions begs the question "Should we even include this mission anymore?"
    Why do you think its only a boost to one TAG and a few HI while ignoring the fact that all religious LI are now immune to E/M?
     
    #8 MikeTheScrivener, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  9. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Could you name the mission you're thinking of?

    As I said, because shooting them is a much worse status effect. I'm struggling to think of profiles with an E/M weapon that would not be better off just shooting the LI with something that kills them instead.
     
  10. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Can we add MI too? Because Thorakitai would too powerful if they would have this.
     
  11. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Hunting Party – you know, that mission where you want to IMM/Isolate specialists/LTs with isolating always being a better and more widely used option.

    While I cannot speak for your meta, but Isolating something is usually a much safer option than trying to engage something in a firefight. Emily Handleman in a full link is a very popular NA2 option. Domaru use E/M grenades to create powerful FtF rolls in their favor, something like the chain rifle leaves them vulnerable to taking free shots. They can also opt to spec throw and bypass any danger they might see in return. Oblivion is probably the best program to use against Ramboing Heavy Infantry, as it removes them from the game to a certain degree while bypassing their high ARM and BS. Tanko's, Yuriko's and anything with a blitzen becomes a lot worse. "You thought you had a long range ARO option?" too bad. Any and all new units that recently got a zapper or a wild parrot also just got gimped trying to create a more powerful ARO setup or active turn catch 22.

    What your asking is for all religious troops to have the Morat special rule, ask Morat players how they feel about their rule.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Would it be a needed buff for nearly all of MO and Haqq, or is it too trivial to bother with? I'm not exactly sure what you're advocating.

    More importantly, it'd make those factions nearly universally 1 to 2 points more expensive per model? On Ghazi who wouldn't care for Veteran, sure, but everyone else?
     
  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

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    Oh, yes, lets make Hacking even less useful than it already is!
     
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  14. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Ah, thanks. I think it's more problematic to give Vet L1 to HI/TAG LTs which would avoid some of those problems.

    Domaru do what? Sounds very order in-efficient. They're going to be B1, hitting on 11s in the good range band, and then doing D13, and then the op force is going to dodge. I'm seeing ~30% chance of success with Domaru vs OS, so 3-4 orders per success. Maybe that makes sense against clustered troops, or HI, but not so much against LI. If it's going to be a bad trade off the Pistol seems like the better option. 12s vs 13 to hit, and B2, D11. Gives ~30% chance of success as well, though in that case the results are not fixable.

    Emily has similar issues, but in her case has a much better chance of killing the other model due to her Assault pistol. (See 67% chance of success)

    Agreed, that's a problem with this change, OTOH, it's already a problem to some extent due to the Morats.

    Probably about the same way the Tohaa feel about all the sectorials getting mix-n-match link teams, or QK feels about Haris everywhere.

    Hacking would only apply to the Religious HI, which would be pretty much MO and Haqq. Definitely a reduction, but not a huge amount.
     
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Or maybe CB should just fix CC costs? CC15 is the highest of any line troop and it's really clear that the line infantry that feel the most overcosted are the ones who pay for CC higher than 13 (Zhanshi feel like an alguacile that is more expensive for no reason, Keisotsu feel like overcosted Metros, etc).
     
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  16. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    A linked Domaru gets a close range ARO of up to PH20 burst 2 that can affect multiple enemies, break Fireteams, and stops enemy Rambos hard.

    Domaru have much better PH than BS so if you want a FTF ARO then EM Grenades are a better choice than the pistol.

    I'm also often going to use EM grenades for 0-8" range AROs on Santiagos, as it's chance of stopping the enemy in their tracks is higher than pistol or combi rifle.

    Being able to shrug off a long range Blitzen ARO from something like a Tanko or Riot Grrl Fireteam is also really nice for Veterans.
     
    #16 colbrook, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Worth mentioning too that both TJC and VIRD are elite armies who are built with very restricted access to direct templates and mines. They were given Jammer units as a high tech alternative, to help provide the Zone Control/Area defense that mines and templates usually provide. On the whole, it's a pretty elegant solution for these two high-tech Sectorials.

    When you start adding more things that ignore Isolation though, it starts to tamper with the ability of these sectorials to defend themselves. Doubly true since a lot of Sectorials this year (including both VIRD and TJC) are relying on E/M to help define many of their new units. Some form of E/M (E/M LGL, E/M grenades, Blitzens, E/maulers, E/marats, Zappers) are present in every new Sectorial released this year.

    Anything that creates immunity to Isolation really challenges how viable these new releases are.

    Anecdote: I played armory with VIRD against a TJC opponent. I quickly realized that with White Noise to block my MSV2 AROs, and Vet L1 Securitate to dig out my Zulu Cobra Jammers, I'd suddenly run into two very prominent, effective counters to the two units I was relying on for defense. It got me thinking about how CB has given out very interesting high-tech defensive options, and also provided them with fairly abundant counters... But a mine is still a mine, and a Chain Rifle is still a Chain Rifle, and both don't really have anything that nullifies how effective they are in their role.

    So please, let's be careful handing out rules that have a huge impact on how new armies function.
     
  18. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Are you unaware of the rather cheap links the Domaru can be a part of? I'm a little unsure about how you came up with these numbers of the pistol versus the E/M grenade in a FtF roll, but I've done the math for you:

    Active Player
    65.54% Domaru Butai hits Order Sergeants (Disabled)

    Failures
    26.39% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    8.07% Order Sergeants inflicts 1 or more wounds on Domaru Butai (1 W)

    This is for E/M grenade toss. Assuming full link for Domaru and cover for both.

    Here is the Pistol:

    Active Player
    51.35% Domaru Butai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Order Sergeants (Unconscious)
    13.90% Domaru Butai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Order Sergeants (Dead)

    Failures
    41.24% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    7.42% Order Sergeants inflicts 1 or more wounds on Domaru Butai (1 W)

    Huh. strange. And this is of course, totally forgetting the ability to inflict multiple states in one order due to the template, or being able to engage multiple models at once while maintaining your success rates on all of them.


    As for Emily, I'm unsure why you would compare the Assault pistol to the grenade launcher, as they are totally different options used for two wildly different engagements.
     
  19. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    How do they get to PH20 and still speculative fire?

    Appears to be a 10% difference at best, and relies on the active player being within 8".

    Which enemy? Santiago have high BS than PH, and in most cases they're going to have much better range bands with their Combi or Spitfire. It might make sense against a multi-wound model, but for everything else you're going to want to shoot them dead.

    I think we're going to have to disagree about how "huge" the impact is here.

    You're right I was just running a normal Domaru, not in a link, but the effects should be similar for either weapon. I'm also not sure that a minor bump in chances to succeed, while leaving a model able to ARO, is better than the ability to remove it from being able to do anything.

    Here's the results of the spec shot you were discussing earlier:

    Face to Face Roll
    Domaru Butai - E/M Grenades vs. Order Sergeants - Change Facing
    Active Player
    41.48% Domaru Butai hits Order Sergeants (Disabled)

    Failures
    41.02% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    17.50% Order Sergeants Dodges Domaru Butai
     
  20. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Seems like a lot of the objections are to the immunity to isolation, which I personally don't think matters much either way, but it appears to be a sticking point for a lot of people.

    So what if Religious troops still granted Regular orders on LoL?