Ballistic Skill mattered much more in N2 when in case of a draw in FTF the shooter with higher raw BS won the roll-off. Given the amount of shooting in Infinity that really mattered, and knights/tags used to be scarier. As a matter of fact, lately I've found myself less inclined to field HI or TAGs, because with so many ways to isolate, immobilize or possess them they just stop being worth their points. LI core + MI haris + lots of Fugazis + Peacemaker/Bulleteer + Engineer + Doc+ infiltrators = 15+ orders to outmaneuver and outshoot nearly anything.
Badly optimised units and redundancy of purpose is something that kills MO concept :( Bulleteers (and fusilier hackers just to put Assisted Fire on them), TOFOOS, Joan and Hospitallers+Magisters (they don't work without each other at all) are the only units I feel like getting into my list because literally, everything else has huge optimisation problems. Why are most of the Knights so bad? - Santiagos have useless in 5-man link 360 visors (while I love E/M grenades with burst 2) and shitty specialist option, while lacking any defence from hackers/jammers - give them better weapon options than just spamming cheap spitfires, more useful specialist and a way to get properly buffed by hackers - or maybe, they could just carry repeaters around, so our hackers could shield them from opponent's attacks - Montesas cost a lot for the skill that is very situational and is way worse when you go second, can only use pointless Duo link and do not have any specialist options - why don't they get an Engineer option, like Hospitallers have the Doctor option? - Teutons cannot link. Period. No tools to get themselves into close combat and necessity to spend a lot of orders on that rush do not help either. Smoke, better speed, kinematika, impetuous instead of frenzy - they are running forward anyway; would be great to see any kind of specialist option there, as they are likely to get close to the objectives - Sepulchres... eh, look at Ayyar. Those guys can do Sepulcher's job better, are specialists on top of that and cost 17 points less. What a shame! We need this Surprise Shot L2, maybe even Holo L3, since it would be nice to link Sepulchre Knight in a link disguised as some other knight and the reveal him at some point. Better weapon assortment would be nice too, as it's pointless to take Combi Sepulchre (so we only have Spitfire option). - Father Knights are nice roadblocks, but they cost a fortune and cannot link with other knights (or order sergeants, would be so nice). FO profile is fucking useless (who ever uses Nimbus grenades, really?) I have enjoyed Assault Hacker a few times, but the impossibility to use him to put Marksmanship on my bots requires me to take another hacker if I want Bulleteer and TR bot buffed :/ Other ideas: MSV2 Knights in an aggressive team link (bane of Ariadna all over the place), Auxbot/Shotgun knights (would love to see this kind of stuff on Montesas), Unhackable White Noise knights (perhaps, Teutons without Cube could get smth like this), Airborne Deployment Knights (imagine entire fireteam dropping in your deployment zone and starting to wreak havoc). Black friars, IMHO, shouldn't follow the steps of Nisse, but instead should be linkable with someone else in the sectorial OR get better speed than 4-2 (since it really swallows tons of orders). Another idea was to have BF Sniper bring Albedo on the table, so it would be the best tool for removing enemy's MSV Snipers in the first turn Seraph isn't just up for its task when there're shitty engineers and Bulleteer, who can do his job but better and for fewer points https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/why-should-i-take-seraph-over-bulleteer.24262/#post-128677 De Fersen is expensive, but is the best hacker in Pano and also a good killer model (basically, proper version of Father Knight Hacker). Would be nice to get Frenzy discount, as he plays in links better than by himself anyway. De Fersen + Hospitaller Doctor + 3 Magisters is actually a valid way to play HI link since it brings Doctor, Assault/Killer Hacker, Spitfire, Multirifle and 3 light shotguns/panzerfausts where you want it to be. Knight lists are less viable these times as well because the current meta supports a lot going around with 20 orders and cheap warbands that can trade off for Knights rather effectively (Ghazis, for example)
I have to say, I've been playing a 17 orders + 1 irregular order in NCA lately. The heavy hitters are a Swiss Guard and 2 spitfire bulleteers. The rest is cheap. - Fusiliers link with missile and hacker - 3 Fugazi - 2 CSU duo - Hexa KHD - Machinist - Trauma doc - Mulebot - Tech bee It doesn't feel like high tech, elite units from NCA. But it's useful.
Builds like this do it for me..... in a sexual way fast assault bots show zero mercy in a face to face at mid range with either redundancy or the option of threatening another side in the form of the second one. Hexa for the dirty work With two Bulleteers do you use the Swiss missile launcher to control the board? [Shame] I kinda... like Montesas but they are overshadowed.[/shame]
Does it not feel high tech? -Fusiliers as some of the most elite line troopers in the game. -High AVA on high tech infowar and sensor-projecting REMs. Instead of meatbags to cheerlead, NCA has tech. -CSUs are pretty advanced in themselves. Nanopulsers are technologically sophisticated, and Metachemistry doesn't exactly grow on trees. -Hexa KHD has TO, Electric Pulse, a hacking device... All quite sophisticated. -The support team of Machinist/Trauma Doc/Mulebot/Tech Bee all represent the logistics support that PanO puts into their war effort. That WIP12 gets made fun of alot, but when you do those re-rolls as a result of PanO's level of tech, they're solid. This lineup is, on average, far more technologically sophisticated than any other army that hovers at the 11-13 point per model price range.
Neoterran Capitaline Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68) HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27) FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) HEXA MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 32) GROUP 2 6 FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army I mean look at that. Now thats a pretty high tech force and yet it still has 16 orders. That NCA for you!
Given YJ/JSA players complain about paying a +CC tax on their units in a shooting game, I don't feel this line of questioning will get us very far. That being said, with your suggestion about the FO, I would like to see non-lethal or status (only) causing weapons that use BS. This is all more of what I said a few pages back that all our units are indeed high tech but the problem is they mostly just offer a a dice advantage instead of fundamentally changing our game-play experience. If the argument is about 'interesting'/versatile vs effective, then we need to talk about what changes the experience. It's no longer a fluff or rules question, it's a question about player interaction with the game/faction. G:Jumper is high tech that changes how the game plays. Zondnauticas are high tech that changes your gameplay. What is unique to PanO that changes your gameplay experience? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything and I think that's the problem. I used to say dropbears but apparently that's now unique to us anymore... T/O marker states at least change up interactions between players with ARO declarations before giving the lovely dice advantage. I hope that that T/O has a stronger presence in Varuna than it does in other PanO so at least that'll shake up our basic gameplay a bit. But just so I'm clear, I don't feel the problem is anywhere near as pronounced as a surprising amount of people on this thread. Maybe its due to kids+life. i.e. I get SO few games going, my brief, infrequent tastes of the hyperpower is enough to completely satisfy me XD I also don't play warrior classes in RPGs because they feel a bit dull. I play something that suits my playstyle better. At the risk of sounding harsh, maybe some people are trying too hard to find the rogue experience from the PanO warrior when they should be seeking out a rogue...? Which incidentally has me thinking why I like PanO so much given my distaste for warriors... Honestly not intending to be rude. Just food for thought.
e/mitters, zappers, stun rifles, etc? I rate stun as an ammo type, and while technically we have access to it from MULTI weapons it sucks to have to reduce B to 1 to fire it.
I came looking for the knight faction and that's not what was found in the knight faction either. I mean flavor is something distinct to everybody and im sure that all factions have things they complain about. After all i was recently in the jsa forum and saw a thread about shikami being absolutely bleh. Id kill for the sepulcher to be the shikami, but its understandable that when you have bs 14 spitfires in spades, one more profile is completely uninteresting. They feel the same about yet another cc23+ ma3 unit. But theyd prob enjoy a bs 14 spitfire. (Not like a huge lot however, theyd like him more as an hmg, as would MO). Sometimes i really wish factions could trade units
Sure but I was also implying that it could be something new. I was thinking that the new sectorials getting new shiny and more importantly, creative toys was part our FOMO. Some ranged weapon that somehow changes our fundamental gameplay experience would be neat and use the +BS. @Skoll: So how do we as a gaming community deal with the feeling that the grass is always greener on the other side? XD
As with everything Context is key. PanO wip is bad sure but if I put down a PanO tag or even remote and they have a engineer a few orders away they will get that TAG back up if they want to. I often find it is worth firing a few more shots just to make sure that is not an option, many other faction I might honestly let them go ahead and try there luck with it.
N3 finally has Pano's trauma doctor and engineer working the way they should based on fluff. Their low WIP makes it harder for them to grab objectives which means their primary purpose is healing with a command token ava for reliability. This shows that Pano's troops are reliant on technology to get the job done. Now it is Ariadna who has the doctors that kill their own units.
The issue is that in the specific i mentioned, technically the grass is greener and both factions would have actually benefited more from the other unit. But it falls to the devs to recognize that
Ive got issues with the other points. But this one obviously stands out to me. The failure is not our TAGs, nor is it support for our TAGs (which is the best in the game really) Its looking at a bulleteer and thinking a Seraph does the same job. Thats a fundamental flaw in the understanding of the game, in short, its not the list
But conversely ariadna gets the best use of paramedics due to the higher than average PH of their units. So it works nicely IMO. Plus the 112 is just a baller 12 pt specialist
You go try the otherside, you learn from it and you bring the lessons and understandings back to you. My PanO lists are fundamentally different after having played Ariadna than they were before, and they are significantly more terrifying and stronger for it
