Seraph and Bulleteer are units that accomplish the same task. Let's compare them so the question stated in the subject would be more obvious: Seraph vs Bulleteer(spitfire version): 82 pts / 2 SWC vs 23 pts / 1SWC 15 BS / 15 DMG Spitfire vs 12 BS (+3 for Marksmanship L2) / 14 DMG (+Shock for Marksmanship L2) Spitfire 7 ARM / 3 STR vs 1 ARM / 1 STR S7 and no defensive mechanism vs S4 and ODD 6/4 MOV vs 6/4 MOV Adequate CC capability (though not CC specialist) vs Electric pulse Additionally, Seraph has SuperJump and HFT Auxbot (which is nice, but just 4 points nonetheless), while Bulleteer is stripped from any special rules that do not directly benefit him in his task of killing stuff So, what we can see is that Bulleteer possesses the same or even better offensive potential than Seraph while being quite nasty in the suppressive fire, too, while costing way fewer points and SWC. And yes, Seraph has access to HFT and is more resilient, but... it's not worth the difference in points, I'd say. So, why would I ever take Seraph over Bulleteer? Are there any cases where Seraph is an ultimately better tool for removing enemy miniatures and serving as a roadblock?
Well, you shouldn't :) Bulleteer is also a Repeater, so if you have KHDs it has much better hacking protection than the Seraph.
Yes, if you look at them only as platforms for Spitfire, BS12 + ODD is better than BS15, especially if you give it ignore cover, then BS15 + ODD is better than BS15. As you said, Seraph is more resilient, like a lot more. ARM 7 vs ARM 1 is actually a big difference. If your Bulleteer happens to get shot with a HFT it's gone for good, while your Seraph has a nice chance (TAGs can go down to HFT as nicely as anything else, just apply more templates to them!) to survive and get angry. Seraph has an Auxbot, both with DTWs, that 2 discovers and 2 intuitive attacks. There are situations where that counts. They both can't dodge (on 10 for the Seraph and on 7 for the Bulleteer (on 14 for the Su Yian for no good reason)). Seraph can punch face (CC20 DAM 16 EXP CCW) and can get into range to do that. Seraph is a TAG, TAGs are cool, TAGs are the reason you started Pano (and possibly Bulleteer is one of the main reasons you are still playing it). Oh and don't forget, Bulleteer is one of the most powerfull shooters we have (just squishy).
Seraph is, by large, more resistant than bulleteer. I think than bulleteer is closer to Swiss than Seraph...
Well, super jump is obviously a big difference. I would not underestimate the shenanigans you can get into with a large silhouette and the ability to jump 6 inches in the air. If you've already taken care of dangerous AROs it's great for picking off units your opponent thinks are safe (obvious LTs and other units prone on rooftops, units facing the wrong way etc.). Even outside of 24" you're hitting on 12s with 4 dice, often unopposed. If you've got a tall enough building to block yourself partially you can still jump high up and not trigger every ARO on the board. A bulleteer, while quite nice and sometimes better in other situations, simply can't do that sort of thing.
A Seraph allows you to score the max amount of points possible in Show of Force where a Bulleteer can not.
The Seraph is fantastic at forcing camo marker troops to reveal themselves. If a Seraph rounds a corner on a camo troop with his auxbot, you're either going to do nothing and hope the seraph fails his discover roll then eat an intuitive attack flamer the next order, or you'll reveal and try to dodge or shoot back and then most likely eat a face full of Catholic lead and napalm. The Bulleteer is in no way even close to being in the league of a Seraph in survivability, quite obviously. One cheap disposable warband throwing a chain rifle in its face is going to spell the Bulleteer's doom, you have a better chance of surviving if you dodge, then you're just going to get CC'd and if you shoot back, you're most likely going to trade your 17-23 points for his <10. The Seraph at least stands a chance in both these scenarios, and has 3 structure and a flamethrower for anything trying to get in its face. Any of the myriad ways of getting around TO and ODD (Visors, Templates, Spec Grenades, CC) Are going to end in a broken Bulleteer. I agree with the others where the Bulleteer should be compared with the Swiss, but even then you're going to have the same argument, the Swiss is just an all-around better survivable piece that's a gunfighter that doesn't need to be buffed by a hacker (who's going to be very vulnerable to the many, many Killer Hackers in the game now. I'm not saying the Bulleteer's not good, it's amazing and buffed it's really scary, but it has it's own weaknesses just like the Seraph. Although I wish they'd make the Auxbot more unique, they really need to throw some jet-wings on that thing and make it able to super-jump with his big buddy, make it the Winged Kuriboh of Auxbots. The Cherubot.
Not sure if trolling, or... I mean a topic like this just makes me cringe. Even as a troll thread it makes me cringe, because it gives new players the idea that main armament is the only important thing on a unit, and ignores all the other ways that an Infinity profile can be valuable. The Bulleteer's a great unit because it shoots well, carries a Repeater around, and does nothing else. When you buy a unit like the Seraph, you're buying something that does multiple things well, and can use all those tools to threaten the enemy in a lot of different ways. In a straight Spitfire-and-Spitfire face to face roll, the Bulleteer looks great. It's doing the one thing it's supposed to be good at. But if you need to maneuver quickly, scramble over terrain, attack rooftop targets, assault Camo units, attack/defend in close combat, apply anti-materiel, force an enemy into a no-win ARO choice, authorize REMs without bringing a Hacker, trip mines/Koalas... The Seraph does well, the Bulleteer doesn't even compete.
Well, imagine HMG Fusilier moving as fast as Jotum, having Remote Presence, being a repeater, having better chances of winning shootouts than Jotum most of the time and still costing way less :) Then I'd compare... And even so, Jotum is just ARM 10 STR 3 brick that literally ignores small and medium arms in cover, while Seraph is not.
Hey, that was what I was looking for! Thank you, guys! That was definitely enough to convince me to try Seraph once again, and eventually make him playable in my list ^^ P.S. My main complaint was still that Seraph is worth a lot of points and easily goes IMM2 to your usual Ghazi's E/Marat (and while Bulleteer isn't better at this, it allows you to bring something else along, as it costs more than 3 times less than Seraph). So, for the job of de-camoing I'd better take Peacemaker/Heavy Shotgun, which is cheaper and also forces an opponent to take hard decisions and eat intuitive attacks... Super-Jump shenanigans are looking interesting, for sure, but how often does it come into play?
Oh yeah, I forgot the Seraph has a Nanopulser as well, so the intuitive is going to be against ARM and BTS, pretty nasty stuff.
Depends, but probably more than you might think. Targets prone on rooftops became shockingly vulnerable. climb onto a high building and jump straight up, and you can often spot troopers that thought they were basically invulnerable. Depending on the height of your terrain, it's like having a Spitfire turret that hovers 12-14 inches above the table. With the ruling that it's possible to get LoF to a target's back arc and shoot them without them ever having LoF to you, it's also possible to come over the top of walls/linear obstacles and arrange unopposed shots. Super Jump lets you play with the geometry of cover and LoF in a way that no other rules allows.
Well that's more fault on Ghazi side (and general weakness of HI/TAGs to all those pesky E/Marats, jammers, hackers etc.) than a Seraph being particularity weak against those ;P
But we need to give an obligatory information to new players that due to CB fackup whenever Seraph jumps (as short skill) his Auxbot is forbiden to make any MOV skill. Enjoy the SuperJump when (rarely) you can actually use it to your advantage.
Yeah, you have to position carefully with the Auxbot so that you don't break coherency, or else be willing to leave it behind when it comes time to make aggressive Superjumping maneuvers.
