Following situation: I shoot the enemy Lt unconscious but do not managed to kill him. "A trooper is considered Killed when he enters Dead state, or is in a Null state at the end of the game." I end my turn the enemy starts. The rules for REINFORCED TACTICAL LINK apply now because: "If the player lacks a Lieutenant during the Tactical Phase of their Active Turn because this trooper was not deployed or because it is in an Isolated or a Null state (Unconscious, Dead, Sepsitorized…), then the player must name a new Lieutenant, without Order expenditure." So only at the end of the game the former Lt is considered killed by the rules. At that point though he is not a LT anymore. So he doesn't count for the main objectives. Is that correct or am i missing something? (quotes are from the ITS document)
That's actually how i would want to play it (makes way more sense). Any FAQ or anything i can base this on? I'd like something to convince my opponent. And RAW i can't read that into it... Edit: And the only old thread i found with a similar issue was this: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/when-does-a-lieutenant-stop-being-a-lieutenant.3248/ Where the closing statement was this:
@HellLois is the authority on ITS Here's @ijw on the matter: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/44163-lieutenant-in-firefight-and-decapitation/ And here's it being asked again and answered the same way: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/45974-decapitation-and-kill/ @psychoticstorm was addressing a slightly different situation in Hunting Party: Order 1: Trooper A (the Lt) goes Unconcious. Order 2: Trooper A(the Lt) goes Immobilised. Start of the next turn Trooper B becomes the Lt This is a scoring example in Hunting Party because Trooper A was the Lt when he was IMM'd. Order 1: Trooper A (the Lt) goes Unconcious, Trooper B has COC so immediately becomes the Lt Order 2: Trooper A(the ex-Lt) goes Immobilised. This is a non-example for Hunting Party, because Trooper A was not the Lt when he was IMM'd. However, for Decapitation they're both scoring examples because Trooper A was the Lt when they entered the Null state. Order 1: Trooper A (the Lt) goes Isolated, Trooper B has COC so immediately becomes the Lt Order 2: Trooper A(the ex-Lt) goes Unconscious. This is a non-example for Decapitation because when the trooper entered the Null state they weren't the Lt.
Thanks. I really wish the rules would make sense without checking for answers in an old now unused forum.
I thought the its considered LT's to be "if they were an LT at any point during the game" and not just an LT during the action that gave them points.
From the FAQ: Hunting Party – When do you consider a Lieutenant Hunted Down? At the end of the game all troopers that are in Isolated, Imm1 or Imm2 states and had these states applied to him while he was Lieutenant. I don't see why it should be different for Hunting Party and Decapitation. Edit: Actually the point is that for Decapitation you check for Lts killed at the end of the game whereas for Hunting Party it's checked at the moment. So for Decapitation they only need to have been an Lt at some point whereas for Hunting Party its at the moment. So that's the argument as to why it may be different. I tend to disagree with it though: because the FAQ says that you check Hunting Party at the end as well. The "some point" consensus rather than "while" pre-dates the FAQ. Compare Nov 17 (while they were the Lt) http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/51406-hunting-party/ With Sep 16 (the Trooper was a Lt at some point) http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/50660-hunting-party-isolating-lieutenants/
The problem here lies with the definition of killed. In Decap shooting someone unconscious does not count as killed. So the condition of killed is not applied to him while he is Lieutenant. It is only applied to him at the end of the game. "KILLING A trooper is considered Killed when he enters Dead state, or is in a Null state at the end of the game." If we actually apply the hunting party FAQ to Decapitation he would not count as a killed Lieutenant. Because the killed condition was not applied to him while he was Lieutenant. It is applied to him at the end of the game when he is not Lt anymore. It would be the same in Hunting Party as if you would shoot a Lt unconscious in one turn After that he ceases to be Lt in the enemies active turn Then in your next active turn you isolate the unconscious trooper when he is not Lt anymore According to the FAQ this would not count for objectives for hunting party because he was not isolated while he was Lieutenant. But suddenly in Decap everyone says it works only because the state is killed and not Isolated, Imm1 or Imm2. But the killed condition is not applied while he was Lieutenant. So either the FAQ is not applicable or you really need to finish the Lt off before the enemy can choose a new one in his active turn. (RAW) EDIT: I changed the label of state out of here for killed because i incorrectly labeled that. Thanks to @inane.imp for pointing that out.
Killed isn't a state* it's a condition derived from a Null state (ie usually Dead or Unconcious). It works per the FAQ (for both Hunting Party and Decapitation) if you 'count' if you enter the state while the Lt and gain the condition at the end of the game. But, honestly, I can see it either way. My preference and my belief is that they work the same. *States have specific meanings in Infinity.
You are completely correct it is not a state. I'll edit my post above to not cause confusion. It is my preference as well that it counts for the objective of the game if you shoot someone unconscious and he still is that at the end of the game. My problem is that i played 3 games of Decap last week (due to Kurage) and every single enemy i had had a different opinion on how this is supposed to work. It gets more than tiresome to have the same stupid discussion at the beginning of every game. First i have to point out where the problem is in the rules (because everyone seems to think his reading is 100% solid and other readings aren't possible). And after that decide on how to handle it. This takes about 15 minute of un-fun which i would rather spend playing. Also this would change my list building for the mission. If i need to actually finish people off i would more often go for fire or viral weapons. Would be nice to know that earlier than 5 minutes before a game.
I'll give this another try with your input @inane.imp to sum it up: First of in hunting party: "A Lieutenant and a Specialist Troop are considered Hunted Down when they are in Isolated or Immobilized (IMM-1 or IMM-2) state at the end of the game." - ITS document "Hunting Party – When do you consider a Lieutenant Hunted Down? At the end of the game all troopers that are in Isolated, Imm1 or Imm2 states and had these states applied to him while he was Lieutenant." - FAQ This means hunted down is a condition that is derived from the states Isolated, Imm1 or Imm2. So due to the FAQ if any of these states that lead to the victory condition is applied to him while he was Lieutenant and it persists until the end of the game it counts for the objective of the mission. So if we apply this reasoning to Decapitation: In Decapitation killed is a condition that is derived from the states Dead or a Null state. So it is basically the same here because according to FAQ in both missions you check at the end of the game. So if the states dead or the null state (and it persists until the end of the game) are applied to the Lt it counts for the objective of the mission. Is that logical so far? This would also mean (if true) that the reading of "being a Lt at some point during the game" is not enough. So how do i handle following situation: enemy Lt goes unconscious in my active turn in the enemy active turn he chooses a new Lt in the same active turn my enemy heals up his former Lt in my next active turn i shoot the enemy former Lt unconscious (this time he stays in that state untill the end of the game) So does this mean for that former Lt i do not get Victory points? Because this time the unconscious state was not applied ot him while he was Lieutenant ? I'm sorry if i'm being difficult here but these are actually all situations which came up in my games.
Seems correct. The same problem exists with Isolated. I think it's possible that it's been answered somewhere else. But it's probably easiest to think of it as 2 questions: 1. Was the Trooper an LT on the order they entered an ISO / Null state? 2. Are they they in an ISO / Null state at the end of the game? If the answer to both these questions is 'yes' then they're Hunted Down / Killed. Edited to more clearly account for COC.
I like this logic, it makes Executive Order more useful in these scenarios. Question: would Chain of Command trigger before or after these points are "awarded".
Chain of Command triggers as a result of entering the state. Trooper A is the Lt when they enter the state, Trooper B (with CoC) becomes the Lt at the Conclusion of the order. Nothing's different regardless of interpretation: they count as Hunted/Killed.
I would argue that these timings are simultaneous, which is why I'm asking. Preferably (and this is personal opinion speaking) the Hunted Down or Decapitated effect is realized at the end of the order in which the trigger condition comes true, giving room and value back to the Chain of Command skill.
Even if you default to 'all simultaneous' then he's still the Lt in the order he enters the ISO / Null state. So CoC can't save you. Basically nothing changes with CoC. It just clarifies how it works for everything else: Executive Order is probably the only 'change' but TBH I don't know how XO is supposed to work anyway, so making everything coherent with the Hunting Party FAQ just makes it easier. I'm fully expecting @Spleen, @toadchild or @ijw to tell me I'm wrong.
The only way it makes sense to play it is if you treat sny trooper who has ever been the lieutenant at any point in the game as a valid scoring target for decap/hunting party. But I've been wrong about what CB wanted before, obvs. Maybe they want fried ice.
