So I've asked this on Facebook and now I'm even more confused. The post recently made here in the spanish side of the forum asking if Speculative Fire can be Combo'd with Surprise Shot seemed to go both ways but the reasoning of @Balewolf made sense. This was also thoroughly commented on in the old forum and it seems like they were pretty sure you could combo it because Speculative Fire says it uses a BS Attack, and Surprise Shot is labelled a BS Attack, and the FAQ clarifying as much. Then almost everyone on WGC stated it couldn't be done. Definitive answer?
Speculative Shot is an Entire Order skill. Surprise Shot is a Short Skill. To use both, you would have to somehow be using one and a half orders. What reason would there be to allow this?
http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/36871-suprise-spec-fire/ https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/speculative-fire-with-surprise-shot.516/ The question: An SAS is in camo state. He speculative fire throws a grenade, declaring that his speculative fire is invoking the BS Attack Surprise Shot. You're making a BS attack, which Surprise Shot is and was clarified as such by the recent FAQ, which you've also met the qualifiers for. When this becomes a face to face when the trooper attacked declares dodge, is the dodging trooper affected by the -3 for Surprise Shot?
Using a Coordinated order to Speculative Fire with one trooper and Surprise Shot with a different trooper is fine. Doing a Speculative Fire and a Surprise Shot with the SAME trooper is not at all the same thing. Surprise Shot is a BS Attack with a Short Skill, it can't be combined with a completely separate BS Attack that is an Entire Order skill. It sounds like someone is trying to treat Surprise Shot like an automatic (passive) skill, which it isn't.
I agree with @macfergusson . Surprise Shot is its own skill. There is no 'combo'ing' it with anything as combining skills like that isn't a thing
Note that the old forum information was a thread based on a forum post that was invalidated by the official FAQ you are citing, as well.
The old forum link refers back to an even older "Solved" forum post http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...-label-and-coordinated-orders/#comment-688859 Which results in the idea you can't coordinate FO with Surprise shot with a regular BS Attack. The current FAQ specifically contradicts it, as Surprise Shot is a type of BS Attack it can be coordinated with other types of BS Attack.
Okay, so it's not usable because you're making a BS Attack called Speculative Fire, and the BS Attack that Speculative Fire calls to invoke is specifically just Speculative Fire, it's not just any attack labelled BS attack then. Is that correct? How does Surprise Shot Forward Observe work, as you can move, then surprise shot forward observe which are technically 2 different attacks and short skills? I'm so confused lol.
FO is a BS Attack in a Short Skill. Surprise Shot allows you to declare a Short Skill to make a BS Attack when revealing from a marker state, and add a -3 penalty to your opponent's Face to Face roll. So you're basically stuffing an FO BS Attack into the Surprise Shot part where it says "Make a BS Attack". Speculative Shot being an Entire Order doesn't fit within the Short Skill of a Surprise Shot like FO does. Although, I guess it is possible that it should be the other way around, as in trying to stuff the Surprise Shot into the Speculative Shot, and you stuff the Surprise Shot into the FO BS Attack. This seems to make less intuitive sense to me on the surface, however, and I'd like someone more official to state it if this is true.
N3 really would have benefited by adding passive abilities, instead of continuing to shoehorn them all into the skill mechanic. Skills allowing you to perform other Skills is wonky, and has led to a few issues over the years.
I would think it’s to do with Forward Observe being a BS Attack and Speculative Fire being an Attack.
That's what the "automatic skill" label is for (passive/no declaration needed), which they didn't use on Surprise Shot. On purpose or on accident, who knows? Yeah, that's my original concern as well, which is where it comes down to what is being "stuffed" into what.
Surprise shot has the BS Attack label which has been FAQ to be coordinated with FO, which also has the BS Attack label. Which we know. Spec Fire only has the Attack label but the effect is allowing you do a BS Attack. Surprise Shot effect is something that is attached to a BS Attack, which is subtly different from allowing you to do one. Basically the label and the cluster of skills aren’t always the same. That’s how I read it. I will say though I could well be wrong and it might take someone like @ijw to give you a better answer.
Which are still trying to use the Skill framework, in a way that feels clunky to me. Surprise Shot does seem like it would have been a good candidate for the automatic label. Wait a minute, would this inadvertently grant Hacking Attacks the BS Attack Label, since it's a skill allowed by Surprise Shot?
But the Surprise Shot Skill still has the BS Attack Label, regardless of what you end up using it for. The FAQ is vague and can be taken out of its likely intended context, allowing you to coordinate a Surprise Shot Hacking Attack (having both the BS Attack and Hacking Attack labels) with other types of BS Attacks. This is why abilities that modify or change the quality of something shouldn't be Skills themselves. Functionally, you're not actually performing a Skill called Surprise Shot, you're declaring a Hacking Attack that has additional benefits granted by Surprise Shot.
I'm not sure the FAQ would let you coordinate Hacking and BS Attacks exactly because they have BS Attack and Attack labels, which are different. The FAQ calls out coordinating skills with BS Attack label. I think I see what you're saying. Coordinating a Surprise Hack with a shot as surprise shot (hack) has BS Attack label. Well we have a whole bunch of rules for coordinate and hacking so I think they take precedence. But also I don't think that's what is being asked. I appreciate its all a bit tenuous as the more I read it the more it blurs a bit. But that's how I read it and like I say it might take someone more knowledgeable than me to either confirm or correct me.
Coordinated Order: Hacking Hacking Programs cannot be used in Coordinated Order unless there is a scenario special rule, or the player has a trooper in the Army List possessing a piece of equipment or Special Skill, which specifies otherwise.
