Panoceania: a problematic faction.

This is another angle of the discussion in which I think it can provide more to the community than the razor-edge approach of being high competitive or not of other threads. Although for disclosure: I do think Pano is highly competitively if the player at the controls of the army knows what she is doing and it’s playing for it’s strengths.

But it is fun? And that is an absolutely personal question. I do know a lot of players who have, both in this game and others, purchase armies from a purely aesthetic angle and later found that such army ‘wants’ you to play in a way you don’t like… but you can always try to ignore that “army will” and just have fun.

Hell, I myself have JSA but I do not enjoy the whole ninja alpha strike HD deployment. And it’s a faction that it’s whole kit is built around the assumption you’re going to use shuch alpha strike HD deployment! But I just want to have fun, and I do it by playing by either Bosozuku style or Hi-Tech Neo Samurai Mecha Style without 0 HD deployment units. Both things that are not only possible in the list, but the miniature aesthetic and flavor allows. Win ratio be dammed… although I do find myself winning more than losing .

So the question then is what did Pano attracted you originally? Can you still achieve it by playing what you like instead of what the army wants?

 

I went for PanO (NCA specifically) after Uprising broke up my Yu Jing after dabbling with Nomads/Bakunin and MRRF, since I enjoyed its high-tech fluff, standard-issue helmets, elite HI and above all else the Auxilia; a Warband in all but name trading the idiot expendable berserker image for a buddy-cop roomba, a top-notch option for clearing out the midfield. Other highlights included the Hexa and Bolts (this was when they were bad, but my opponent played Dart so they were actually amazing), and a surprisingly good Hacking game with a web of REMs, EVO, Hidden Deployment options and the lethal but premium Deva AHD. I wanted to stop sneaking about and trading troops for objectives, and fight my way up the board with robots to keep my valuable human troops safe.

These days I can't really do that. The lack of Blackout and weak reactive KHDs make it hard to use a Hackable spearhead like Pathfinders for objective play, and premium shooters like the Aquila, Swiss or TAGs have to play timidly against anything with Pitchers. The loss of the EVO's reroll and unique supportware alongside the Deva AHD getting replaced with the massively inferior KHD also turned the faction's Hacking from a sleeper hit into a total flop so I can't really fight the Hacking fight head-on anymore regardless of investment. Worst of all, long-range fighting has fallen out of favour in pursuit of efficient objective play and "assassin" pieces starting right next to the enemy DZ. I've instead had to start using my human troops as bait and defense in Fireteams, relying on sneaky troops that can fight too as the heart of my offensive while REMs are only cheerleaders.

I find this much less enjoyable than my old lists, which felt fluffy, technified and powerful. Opponents who beat the list usually focused on its poor mobility to fortify the midfield and choke out my scoring ability, or made bold raids into my DZ to cut my capabilities. In the current environment I'm usually the underdog, sacrificing soldiers for positional advantage and making small windows for special-ops teams to infiltrate the midfield and sneak objectives. The one bright spot is that Auxilia are still awesome, and with their nature as only partially Hackable units they're still able to burn their way up the board as an unstoppable spearhead, consolidating my gains. I've not been able to make my old-style lists work yet though, may try it blindly and hope I don't hit Nomads, but without the old Hacking tools it won't be the powerhouse it was.

 

I went for PanO specifically because I liked their models. Not for gameplay, or uber profiles. Purely for models, because the rest of it is irrelevant and if I was into it for those, I can play a video game instead.

I've never been a "competitive" player, and I still play the game like a cheesy 80s action movie. So do my usual opponents.

 

I really miss PanO from the end of N3. It felt like we had several very viable solutions and builds in most of our sectorials. The hacking aspect of NCA was definitely on point.

 

I don't really understand the part about Pano not being able to play part of the game. I mean, we don't have smoke or warband, that's true. But that's kinda it, right?

That aside, I can see Pano is not in the best shape. I stopped playing for almost 2 years and Varuna was so good at the end of N3. Now it's underwhelming. I'm not saying it's bad, but it doesn't have any super star shooter and not so many options in general. Kamaus, Zulu Cobras and the Montesas are still pretty good though. Helots got worse but they can still potentially make a lot of damage for a 9 pts troop... if you can spare 0.5 cap and a regular order.

MO looks pretty good to me. I used to play it in N3 before all the new profiles so now it doesn't look bad. I still have to try them for real though. But the Teutonic knights, the Sepulchre and the new Trinitarians look very solid to me. We still have Tikbalang which is amazing. Seraph is usually underestimated, but I find it so fun and can make a terribly efficient hunting with superjump. And Montesas again... very fast and worth those ~30 points.

NCA looks outdated to me. They still look scary, but for a sectorial that feels slow and has to start mostly from deployment zone I think they don't compensate it enough even if they shoot good. It'd be cool to see NCO, tactical awareness or mov 6-2 in the Aquila or Swiss Guard.

I've never played Acontecimento or Svalarheima so I won't comment there.

In general it'd be cool to see more technology available. Like more options with auxbots or cheaper and useful troops with visors. In early N3 it was known as the faction that will discover all of your camos because of the visors, but right now I feel like it's not that easy anymore. It doesn't feel like Pano is the hyperpower with more money and technology than everyone else.

 

I can comment on Acontecimento, as it was my first army and I still have a soft spot for it. It was always the most fun of PanO sectorials to play, and it's still pretty good, though could use fireteams update.

When I was leaving PanO it certainly was a competetive faction, just one that CB didn't really have the heart for, and I don't think much changed there. MO introduced some interesting concepts, but in general it's obvious that until designers will change their approach PanO won't be able to expand beyond their - at this point unexcusable - limitations. This was discussed ad nauseam in multiple threads.

 

Also, Montesas... it's as if they tried to fix half of Pano with that bike. I'm also kinda jealous that Acontecimento has the better version of the Tikbalang.

 

For the benefit of newcomers to the faction (like me), could you give a quick summary of PanO's limitations, or point me to the threads where this is discussed? As far as I have gathered, the main limitations are that PanO's only real method of problem solving is to shoot down whatever is causing said problem, and PanO does not have any other reliable methods to remove problem pieces. Furthermore, the faction's high native BS doesn't give them as much milage as you'd think, and other factions can still meet PanO on more-or-less even terms. But I strongly suspect that there's more to the story.

In terms of PanO's technical supposed technical prowess, here are a few ideas that I have that might help make the faction less boring:

1) More (or improved) REM or Remote Presence troops - I figure that a high-tech army like PanO would see the value in using remotes for assaulting enemy lines and breaching buildings so they don't have to expose their human troops to as much danger. PanO already has some options for this, but I think that there's room to get creative, especially when other factions like O-12 and Yu Jing have their own S2 remote troops.

2) More sensor and minesweeper - I think that this might play into PanO's strengths. The idea that I have is that, being a high-tech army, PanO would invest in and should have ample resources to detect hidden threats (like HD infiltrators). Once a threat has been uncovered, PanO can then leverage its high BS to take it out, or use indirect fire if you can't do that without taking a shotgun to the face.
2a) Of course, using guided missile fire is also something that needs to be tweaked. My suggestion for balancing guided fire is to allow a hacker to cancel out the +6 mod to hit.
2b) More grenades - In the case I laid out above, if there is an infiltrator with a shotgun hiding in a corner, and you can't peek the corner without getting shot, you could try tossing a grenade around the corner.

3) Better hacking defense - This is just a spitball idea, and I don't expect it to be taken particularly seriously. However, I think that PanO having some kind of slightly upgraded defense against hackers on some troops would be useful and fluffy. Something as simple as more tinbots, ECM (hacker), and even Immunity (Possession) on a TAG, that other factions can't do, or can't do as well. While we're at it, giving PanO an effective, dedicated anti-hacker unit who is good at his job might also be nice.

Hopefully these ideas might be of some use. If I come up with anything else, I'll be sure to post it.

 

One trooper enabling one aspect of the game is probably enough to cover that part of the game for the entire Faction.
Most Factions manage to have one at least one trooper that shoots well enough to not worry about any limitations there, Avatar, Marut, Achilles, Kriza Borac, Core Linked Vet Kazak etc might all be standout exceptions, nontheless one is enough to check the box and move on.

The Fireteam Update is to blame for a lot of extra issues. A lot of Factions kept or gained efficient mixed links with full Boni. All of PanO's go to Fireteams lost it. Regulars with Baghs, anything MI or HI linking with Fusiliers, Teutons.
If you keep your Bonus you get +2 BS compared to non pure Links. Meaning anything else has +1BS in a full core over all of these PanO Links if you started at 1 BS lower.
There are ways around that by simply going for pure MI Links with Machinists in Varuna and NCA. With a base of BS13 and utilizing MSV and or Marksmanship. Virtually the same kind of link available to TJC - with Smoke if you want it.

PanO mostly has a lot of redundant choices to fill the same roles across Sectorials. Bagh, Kamau, Bolt, Karhu have a lot of overlap and fill a similar purpose in their respective Sectorials. If a Sectorial is in a good place, it's mostly thanks to some Aleph stuff patching holes where PanO wasn't allowed to have nice things.

In a sense Uma is an abberation and the first break from everything that's wrong with PanO in forever. And we all remember how bad she was before that.

Here's some general problems that manage to ruin a large amount of Profiles for no apparent reason:
- undergunned expensive and capable chassis. Example: KoJ Hacker, Santiago Hacker, Seraph, ZC Jammer, Locust Wildparrot
- lack of features. It's not uncommon for other Factions to have 4+ things going on for utilitiy Profiles, Skirmishers and characters. On average PanO manages to have 2 features less. For every exception like the Echo Bravo Paramedic or Uma, there's a Locust, Nokk, Bipandra or Konstantinos. Getting even close to something like the Evader AP Spitfire Engineer is completely unthinkable in PanO.
- lack of options beyond baseline. There's one Hacking Upgrade in the entirety of PanO. AP HMGs/Spitfires exist on the KothS and then on TAGs.
- CB broke stuff a long long time ago without replacement. These things were vital to make stuff work. Magisters where what enabled other Knights most importantly Hospitalers. To make them work on their own, they need some BSG/LSG/SMG + Sidearm Filler Profiles, same for Orcs and Santiagos. GDA got shafted by the GL Rangeband changes without a 2nd thought. Helots are significantly worse than in N3 and eat up slots at the same cost as before.
- Lt choices are Joan or a label that forces a trooper to hide. Workaround here is the Karhu NCO, that's about it for the most part.

 

I think it's important to specify what we're talking about...

Are SAA an unfun monotonous and poor faction? No not at all, they are solid, varied, have a strong theme and are competitive.

Are Varuna an unfun monotonous and poor faction? Not really; they have strong links, good forward deployers, helots, cutter and other neat units. They are a little more stiff in list building but again, definitely able to play competitive. I've personally witnessed them tak first a few times at big events.

Are MO an unfun monotonous and poor faction? I don't think so at all. Very thematic, well balanced, interesting, with a few duffers that hold them back a bit imo.

Are NCA an unfun monotonous and poor faction? On one hand they are awesome, powerful, lots of builds, lots of unique options. On the other they are really held back in a lot of ways relating to movement, developing the board and winning the mission. I'd say they're neither fun nor monotonous, but could do with a dose of help.

Are SWF an unfun monotonous and poor faction? Yes, I think they might be. They have the Karhu wildcard, which really marks them out, but they seem very two-dimensional, especially when held up next to White Banner, the faction they debuted alongside! A lot of their newer units are pretty meh (with the godlike Karhu being the exception!)

Are Pano Vanilla an unfun monotonous and poor faction? Perhaps. They're very Joan & Tag focussed.Certainly far more limited and less competitive than literally any other vanilla faction in Infinity.

So yeah, I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here! Even the mighty Haqqislam have a slightly duff faction (QK) hidden amongst their crown jewels. What really marks Pano out from every other faction for me is how limited its Vanilla options are, and how unimaginative the SWF release was, imo. If SWF had gotten decent utility units, even a warband, and vanilla got access to them (or perhaps even just ava2 Trinitarians from the MO), then I think they'd be a decent vanilla army, quite honestly. As it is they are darn limited compared to every other vanilla faction in the game. It can feel frustrating, I know, to see all the cool stuff other factions get given, but Pano can still mix it up.

 

@Time Bandit is disagree about QK. It's extremely powerful sectoral because of linked Azrael (perhaps the most powerful attack/defend piece in the game), linked x-visor pitchers for that non-interactive GML play and cheap smoke warbands.

 

MO has by far the better Tik, it's carrying an AP HMG instead of a basic one.

 

Yes. More auxbots can only bring peace to the human sphere. Want, need, give. Any excuse to have more of them. I love those little bots.

 

Hi Tanan, glad to hear it! Been seriously considering starting a corsair QK army! They do consistently rate in the bottom 5 factions, although I'm happy to hear of their potential.

 

Honestly they're probably the one thing you really can't beat PanO for; you can find GSync elsewhere, but never quite as cheap or plentiful.

 

- No smoke
- Low WIP
- No more than a couple of skills for each base profile
- No advanced skills/options outside Characters profiles
- Expensive stuff only on HI (on top of them using the old math matrix)
- Limited Fireteams
- No Warbands

Like @Stiopa said, these are limitations from a past era that shouldn't be anymore, not because army limitations shouldn't exist (quite the opposite) but because exceptions do a rule, and it's either that or asking nicely to Haqq and Nomads player for instance to remove two third of their shiny new profiles since N4... Bet this won't end well, so the former is the better solution! ^^'

(And also: the fact that these limitations make Pano even weaker in shooting than some armies is totally ridiculous...)

 

@Time Bandit Azrail-feuerback, Sekban-doc, Hafza form Haris, which can eliminate any model from extreme ranges with minimal risk, while simultaneously being the most deadlies AROs themselves. 2xDruze hackers and hafza form core, which can put 4x12 (<24") or 4x9(<40") repeaters to enemy deployment zone . There is ofc Kameel nearby to refill pitchers if needed. Two additional ghulam hackers sit in the deployment zone to deliver the most balanced 4x coordinated spotlight to anything expensive. Add some cheap Yuan Yuans to fill up combat groups, which are one best warbands in the entire game.

It's one of the most oppressive meta lists out there.

 

How many factions have free and easy access to these?