Hi, with N4 having dropped, I'd like to get my opinions out of my head and start a thread about the changes or non-changes of our nomads units and N4 in general. MAybe it's too much for one post, we'll see: I think I'll do this per sectorial: Corregidor: The winner of N4 Lupe: unchanged Carlotta Kowalsky - our new van Zant - with the new Parachutist (DZ) I think she's a viable upgrade over Tomcats Jazz and Billie: now with HDplus and you get Billie while taking the FTO version - almost an autotake Tomcats: Panzerfaust instead of DEP, otherwise unchanged, still good Valerya Gromoz: nice upgrade, but compared to Jazz ... a niche Hellcats: unchanged Intruder: unchanged, sadly no camo Ltd for us anymore Sombra, Wildcats, Evaders: already discussed ... still don't like the Wildcats. Dunno why Corregidor needed their own Grenzers. I'd prefered something like Bolts. Mobile Brigada: Mostly unchanged, nothing extraordinary Gecko: cheaper like all TAGs. MMR interesting, because it only exists that Geckos don't cost less than 50. Iguana: unchanged, cheaper like all TAGs REMs: only got translated and somewhat cheaper Bandits: they are still okay. Booty is more usefull than Scavanger, although I'd prefered Scanvanger. Suited the character of the unit more. Moran: The most unexpected boost. Infiltrating Markerstate Repeater Specialist ... not that they weren't taken in N3, I think they will only get taken more in N4. But they get new miniatures, so the profile has to sell the miniature. Jaguars: Mostly unchanged, still very good McMurder and Sr. Massacre: only got translated, they are still okay. Bakunin: The looser of N4 Avicenna: unchanged Zoe & Pi-Well: Like Clockmakers very good (and expensive) engineers, but mostly unchanged Prowlers: IMO the only Bakunin-unit that got a Boost, with HD they are really interesting (at least for me, cause I already liked them before, although they were too expensive), both in Bakunin and Vanilla. Reverend Custodiers: unchanged Reverend Healers: unchanged (really???) Reverend Moiras: they got more expensive with usefull skills, but still glass cannons Kusanagi: unchanged (really, no SI?) Sineaters: unchanged (really???) Riot Grrls: unchanged, still good Taskmasters: unchanged, still good, though the lack of Free Agent is sad Lizard: unchanged, but cheaper like all TAGs Bran Do: unchanged Zeros: unchanged, still good Uberfallkommando: unchanged, still good Morlocks: unchanged, still good So Bakunin is the looser of N4. With only one unit revised and the others just translated this makes them loose even more ground, because others (Corregidor) got an upgrade. And really the Moiras, and especially the Reverend Healers, were not changed a bit? Or the Sineater? Seriously? I don't understand this. Reverend Healer cost 10 points to much. I think StarCo is the new Bakunin. Just sad. Hopefully they get a rework in 2 years when new Bakunin models drop. Why they did not get a rework with N4 ... I don't understand. Tunguska: The middle child Hecklers: unchanged, still good Jelena: unchanged Mary: unchanged, still good Miranda: unchanged Puppetactica: unchanged Raoul: upgrade to ODD, great Cheerkiller: new, no link options except Wildcards, so no Perseus Interventors: unchanged, still good Grenzers: slight upgrade with the Marksmanship on the MSR Zondnaut: unchanged Kriza: slight nerf with Mimetism instead of BS-3. I guess the PanO players complained long enough that the beloved Kamau MSR actually had an opponent it can not cancel completely. Sad. But, he is the first (and only?) model which can get B6 during the Active Turn. Like really? Was this really necessary? I can already hear the PanO and Yujing players complain over and over again that Nomads have the best HI. Until they either get their own B6 HI or the Kriza is nerfed. Actually I'd prefer the nerf, but I want the BS-Attack -3 back. I don't understand the Problem with Suppressive Fire, there are ODD-models with SF and they are not too strong, why should the Kriza be too strong with BS-3? Hollow Men: unchanged Szalamandra: unchanged, but like other TAGs 20% cheaper Spektrs: unchanged Perseus: unchanged So Tunguska kept the unit that worked, got few upgrades and stands at the same place as before, which is okay. Summary: Bakunin got left behind. With only one unit changed this Sektorial is in a poor state. Sineaters are very obvious here. A dedicated ARO-troop which is overshadowed by every Core-linked Cheerleader thanks to Sixth Sense. Why not give it 360° visor, or X-Visor or ... a crazy idea ... Sitxth Sense? To make it playable? That's just sad, poor Bakunin. Obviously only the new shiny gets new profiles, even with a new edition. N4 in general: Fireteams completely unchanged is a failure. Drop Sixth Sense from Fireteams. Why do they need this? Every other trooper is surviving without it, why do Fireteams need Sixth Sense? Dedicated ARO troopers like Sineater or Yan Huo (with Neurocinetics) don't have it, why do Fireteams need it? To be the best and lamest ARO trooper available? If N4 balances out, IMO depends on hacking. I don't know yet if the extremely simplified hacking can cancel the cheap HIs available. Tanko starting at 17 points, Domaru at 20 points and Reverend Moiras at 31 points... So IMO there are only two possibilities: Either TAGs and HI got too cheap and most lists get TAG/HI-stomped or hacking got too strong (at least with Nomads) and HI and TAGs are still almost unplayable. I doubt it's possible to hit the sweet spot and make both playstyles viable. If they hit this sweet spot, this would be a great accomplishment ... Obviously CB has no idea what to do with MI. They are still only expensive 1W Troopers that are only used for special duty in a Link but not the base of a list. Most of them just got even more expensive and more niche, like Wildcats and Moiras. Others stayed unchanged (Custodiers, Intruder, Sineaters, Kusanagi ...), means, they dropped in "value" because other units got upgrades or cheaper I am glad we kept upgrade programs. How hacking balances out I don't know yet, but it's a nice touch. Summary: I am not sure if N4 is a hit. With Fireteams unchanged I'd say no.
I think you missed a bit. Here's a few off the top of my head: Corregidor: Hellcats: GOT +3 TO AD, AMAZING! LOST HMG (WAHH) Mobile Brigada: GOT ARM 5 Iguana: unchanged, cheaper like all TAGs EJECTION SYSTEM CHANGED REMs: only got translated and somewhat cheaper GOT VOSTOK AMAZEBALLS! Clockmaker GAINED B2 GIZMOKIT: PRETTY GOOD AMAZING LINK OPTIONS! Bakunin: Clockmakers GOT B2 GIZMOKIT, CAN LINK FOR B3 Riot Grrls CAN SEE THROUGH SMOKE NOW, and link with Moderators and Taskmasters and Avicenna and clockmakers Moderators GAINED WIP 13, and can link with Riot Grrls... AMAZING LINK OPTIONS! Tunguska: The middle child Grenzers: slight upgrade with the Marksmanship on the MSR AND WILDCARD Interventors LINK WTH SECURITATE NOW Overall: Nomad Hacking got a lot better, and our ability to repair (our now cheaper) TAGs got better. Both good for Nomads. Also, first B6 in the game. Summary: It's hard to say yet, but all sectorials got some amazing new options, especially considering links
Tomcats: The Engineer got MULTI Rifle, kinda dope. Riot Grrls: Got BS Attack(+1 Dam)! Taskmasters: Innate Minelayer + HMG guy has Mines now. Might not be a big deal. Puppetactica: They're not a Fireteam anymore, so they just got innate +1B, but this disappears when Transmuted. Also in Vanilla, one of them can be buffed by Remracer!! Perseus: +1 Dam in Breaker, pistols got upgraded into Heavy Pistol(+1B), which is nice, but still this guy is a difficult one to leverage.
They didn't. It is simply called "Heavy Machine Gun" in length, rather than abbreviated "HMG". It is the 2nd loadout in the Brigada's unit profile.
Yes, I left some less exciting units off the list. Intentionally. Yes, Clockmakers are good (see Bakunin entry). I left off the new units, because they were already known and not released yesterday. And I left of the Rulechanges like MSV1 can see through smoke, because it's still only a translation of the profile, no profile change. But you are right. I might have missed some changes, like Mobile Brigada (not my top unit, so I might have missed that) and missing HMG Hellcat (I used it once, but prefered the BSG or Spitfire afterwards). And yes, Link options are amazing all around (like they are on other factions), but these min-maxing-mixed links always leave a bad taste in my mouth. I just don't like them. That's why I was more coming from a Vanilla perspective, except for a few obvious units. Like the B6 Kriza. Still, IMO the translation of Bakunin was a bit ... unloving. For something as hyped as N4 and the Bakunin profiles are almost untouched ... this strikes me the most.
I dunno, just feels like you left out most of the good stuff and therefore concluded that it wasn't good. I dunno that's really a fair way to assess it. I dunno how it will come out in the end (almost every faction seems super good compared to n3 to me). but there's a lot of exciting stuff to try. Some stuff I would do different for sure, like it seems like they buffed some stuff that was already strong (Riot Grrls, Kriza), and missed the mark with some stuff that was already weak (Observance Troops, Wildcats). Other stuff they made interesting that wasn't as much before though (Grenzers, Prowlers, Moderators, non KHD Hackers in general). There's at least plenty of scope to be optimistic until we play with it a bunch, IMHO. As to Bakunin - they've made it quite clear their focus is CJC right now, then they will move onto BJC. But to me there's heaps to be excited by in BJC still.
I think we have to agree to disagree here, regarding Bakunin. There are too many units in this sectorial that got no love. Whole Observance (Custodiers, Moiras, Healer, Sineaters, Kusanagi) left out. And the Fireteam madness doesn't make me happy anymore. I even have to disagree on the units of which you say that were not used much before. non KHD Hackers ... I used Interventor and Jazz in almost every game. And Mary, but yes, she's a Killerhacker. I wasn't happy with Lists that only had KHD Hackers.
Not saying those Hackers didn't get used. Just that they were made better and/or more interesting. Which is pretty huge for Nomads. Moiras changed a fair bit too. Even if I'm unsure of the result myself too.
I wanted to Like it, because in principle you are right. But then I remembered that I am not sure yet, if the "normal" hackers got better or not or if it's a sidegrade. But yes, if hackers got better, that's pretty huge for Nomads. As is the change to Morans (my usual PanO opponent already hates this) Maybe I am just a bit pi**ed that from my point of view the whole update looks unfinished. Some things got buffed, substantial buffs, but other stuff, that wasn't working in whole N3, got nothing. Looks unfinished to me. Will Nomads be playable ... I think so, sure. Just kill every other Hacker and send the Geckos (which got ARM 6 btw.) But as Mobile Brigada (ARM5, like you said) they are Corregidor ... And if you say that "almost every faction seems super good compared to n3 to me" for me thats a negative point, because it just screams 'Power Creep'
Nothing spectacular to point on my part but I'm really hyped of (almost) all of the things Bakunin got. All those tiny changes make my options spread out and I'm very happy about that. However, there is one thing I'm bit sad about. If I've understood things correctly. I cannot take Reverend Hospitaler into my Custodier Haris anymore. I did bring my boarding shotgun nun on leash to punish to wicked sinners daring to touch my Custodiers. If I understood correctly this isn't possible anymore, unless I go with Moira Core.
Oh! That is true. My mistake not actually paying attention to the actual list showing Moiras can create Haris! This is what you get for paying attention only to Army 7 (I'll update my bug report with addition of "Moiras are missing Fireteam:Haris" on their skills.) Thanks for pointing out this one. My favorite Healer on leash havn't disappeared! (That Reverend Healer BSG with extra burst is _really_ nice near area protector - people tend to underestimate this)
Yeah I cannot agree with most of the OPs observations, too many things were glossed over as unchanged. I've been playing TJC for a while now and I have been digging into the new army to wrap my head around them. Here are my observations on the units in TJC using the OPs formatting. Overall TJC saw maybe a 5% decrease in costs? Some of my lists are more expensive now too. Hecklers: Disposable Jammers mean that profile will not operate just as it has before, but the fast panda is great utility in Tunguska in N4. The other two profiles are the same with a slight cost increase for the BSG. Jelena: Is a freaking Wildcard now, expect to see her cheapening up Hollow Man cores and harris. Mary: Is an active turn hacking monster with a lot of ARO potential if she is up close. Unfortunately her not having access to a program that imposes a negative mod to hacking means she is entirely dependent on her BTS 6 when dealing with KHD in the reactive now. Lightning was a defining program on her and this is a big change. Miranda: Again she is a Wildcard too now, she will see more table time in fireteams where she can bring a nice spearhead or cheapen it up. Puppetactica: This may be one of the more complicated and subtle changes but trust me these units are completely overhauled. The Puppetmaster can react and act now. You can put the whole group on SF for one order, or one command token at deployment. Native +1 Burst means you do not have to run 3 to get the bonus in the active turn and never now in the reactive... a very interesting change. Oh and they can benefit from assisted fire and/or REM driver in vanilla. Raoul: FYI there are rumors that many units didn't get the correct mimemtism level, so don't get too stuck on him having ODD until we know it's for certain. He also got MA2 in addition to his NBW, this is pretty big for him. DA and EM ccw is a nice upgrade for him. Cheerkiller: Inexpensive Msv2 harris is going to add some flexibility in list building that TJC didn't have before, combined with all of the wildcards these girls may find some interesting niches. Interventors: These guys can be in a Securitate squad, this is HUGE for tossing out Spotlight, etc ARO on stealthed units. I feel the KHD may be the best killer hacker choice for hacking heavy armies because it's going to react better with Trinity (-3) and BTS 9. It's not lightning, but it's as close as exists in N4. Grenzers: MM on the MSR is nice and welcome. Losing the Spitfire for a Red Fury was not. NCO sensor/FO is interesting and may be worth a shot in aggressive links but it competes with the Stemplar in HM cores and LT order often is useful for the LT in TJC. At least CB kind of admitted they are nothing more than expensive fireteam additions and with wildcard you may see them in a lot of different links now. MSV1 changes means they are going to be the fireteam core ARO unit of choice. Zondnaut: Got much more expensive. Sadface. Still as good and the hacker will still be an amazing specialist for a lot of scenarios. I don't get why they got +1 CC. Kriza: Mimetism is a sidegrade IMO. Shame about FA2, but it makes sense. Mimetism is going to help the Kriza use his PH 14 when shooting back is bad. It also makes him better at suppression fire. Shame to see him become less unique, but it's not a terrible way to go. B6 in a HM fireteam that can carry so many wildcards to reduce costs is going to be a weird thing to me. I actually have to go buy another themed d20 because of this. ;) Hollow Men: Super Jump is less flexible than it was, this will slow down the HM roll somewhat but isn't a major nerf. Most HI got a lot cheaper and Hollow Men didn't really follow suit, but wildcards are going to drastically change how they can operate as a core team in N4. Szalamandra: at 72 points were going to see this bad boy on the table a lot. Spektrs: sadly unchanged, but the new terrain rules are a significant upgrade to the Multiterrain. 5-5 MOV TO specialist through dazers is going to twist up some shas panties. Perseus: Perseus is now stronger in every regard. He hits harder in CC because of the MA changes. Heavy Pistols and +1 DAM to Breaker means he hits harder with BS attacks. +1" Dodge is excellent for him with the dodge changes. Joining a HM core but losing super jump to do it is kind of silly, but hey whatever CB... at least it isn't as bad as the old Kriza harris. Vostok: This thing is amazing. Wildcard on the ODD is so choice. Murderbot gonna murder. Wolfgang: He is a solid profile to be a wildcard point man with a lot of utility in an aggressive fireteam. B5 multirifle is no joke in N4. He's going to compete with Perseus and Raoul for role and space. I'm sure he will be fun to play. He's expensive, but actually costs out well for his profile. 2 wounds is a nice addition in TJC that has so many shock-vulnerable hitters. ABH: Nice to have them not attached to Miranda, but they aren't cheaper than Securitates or Cheerkillers. Re-roll on the bounty is nice and a few of the profiles are good deals. No wildcard means they will probably be limited to one in some lists, but probably not taken often.
@jfunkd thats a lot more in line with my nuanced opinion of how things are shapping up. FWIW I kinda hate the volstock because it seems sooo good, it kinda makes most other choices look bad.
Corregidor is really the winner of N4, Intruder profile with shock marksman and KHD is really interesting, Evaders looks very good, personally I like the old wildcats more than the news, less expensive, but swc cost of some units have been reduced, so I think CB has done a great job with us (Nomads). Anyway, Sombras are really amazing, bye bye prowler !
So when Puppetbots lose a wound, do they lose the +1B now? Forgive me if I am wrong, but can a Puppetmaster and its puppet bot now both move+shoot?