Except this is not really true. Which units are you not using because you have access to Posthumans? There is multiple Poshumans available and pretending like they are a single OP unit is quite unfair.
I'm not saying netrods are overpriced, i'm saying they are not cheap, that is: not underpriced. They are not a bargain. These cheap orders come at a great cost: these units not only may be destroyed before the first turn, but they can't do anything else than giving an order. Please don't underestimate what a cheap but real troop can do.
Sure, some are more useful than others. Mk.5 FO sees the table more than Mk.5 Marksman. Mk.3 is generally overlooked (it's actually a very viable choice for me). Mk.1 suffered a decrease in popularity after Mk.4 and Mk.5 showed up. Mk.1 direct competition is mostly Sophotect; the former gets superior stats (save MOV), Mimetism and a Hacker option. The latter is faster and gives you Engineer and Doctor in a single package. That's a fair difference, though in my opinion Mk.1 would still be worth it if it'd cost 5 pts more. Mk.2 overshadows Dasyu in whatever way you want to look at it. Mk.3 is competing against units like Spitfire Deva and Zayin. It's far more durable, but has no other bells and whistles - no MSV, no Total Reaction. It could even use some boost, like Mimetism or ODD and 6-4 MOV. It'd even it out against Mk.4. Mk.4 is a no-brainer assault piece, has no direct competition - save maybe Asura - and its firepower, durability, and low opportunity cost make it a bargain. Mk.5 is competing against Thrasymedes and Andromeda. Or rather would; 10 pts NWI FO with its weapon loadout is almost as close to autoinclude as Mk.2 hacker. Sure, there are probably some situations where you'd want to take the competitors instead. But they're too few and too far between. Good balance is when a single unit can't cover too many niches in the game and its competition is just as viable half of the time. Here, Posthumans win without breaking stride. Mk.2, 5 and 4 combined cost around 50-60 pts. Taking their competition instead would be at least 2x as expensive. The difference in orders can be covered by Netrods. Hell, it can be covered by Dakinis, and it'd still be a bargain. I'm not, and I'm fully aware of Netrods shortcomings. Mine tend to miss the table or scatter to vulnerable spots on a regular basis. Dakinis or Thorakitai are better in many situations. But they're still have great value for their cost. But since I misunderstood your post and we both don't think they're over- or underpriced we're just splitting hair here ;) Guys, I'm an Aleph player too. I like Posthumans. They're great, thematic and fun to use. But right now they're too cheap for what they provide. Remember, HSN3 both massively improved G:Jumper, and decreased Proxies cost.
So this is internal competition now. Irrelevant for out broader discussion. We might as well discuss why no-one seems to take regular Auxilia over Auxilia FO. Indeed. But here's the thing: you don't always take Mk.1. Or sometimes you take the Hacker. While it's not a 50-50 split, you know what, neither is taking an Intruder HD over the Interventor HD+. Sometimes you take one, sometimes other. Furthermore, I would actually say this is due to Sophotect being too pricey rather than Posthumans too cheap. Sometimes when I cannot have the Mk.I Engineer for some reason (which is the one I usually take) I will have to battle to try and include the Sophotect simply because the Sophotect is so expensive for such a fragile unit. One you cannot afford to risk due to price, meaning the speed is oftentimes useless. And don't speak to me about "tank the shot, you have NWI". And yes, a few points up on these profiles (2, maybe 3) would be acceptable. But wouldn't really make that much more impact. And if you upped them by 5 points they'd be playable, but Aleph listbuilding would suffer. In a lot of ways, yes, but I still regularly take Dasyus. Because the FO and KHD profiles are good. AHD and particularly Sniper are far too expensive to ever take, Posthuman or no Posthuman. Same for Naga Sniper; it is not the internal competition balancing it out, it is simple price. Overall, these profiles are the ones I agree higher price would be in line. Partly because it is so easy to just leave them in Hidden Deployment without losing anything. 3 points or so would be okay. We've had these discussion since forever, my stance is Mk.III is garbage not worth the paper written on. :D It is an absolute bargain, but I think it is correctly priced for the most part. Though it faces absolutely no internal competition since Vedic does not have such HI, and Asura is both a different class of troop and so overcosted that it provides good competition only Dasyu AHD. Indeed, the FO is the probably worst offender. I'd be fine with a 3 or so points increase. I'm not comparing the Posthuman to Phalanx because there is a whole another layer of problems there - sectorial vs vanilla. Except Posthuman is 5 different units. Stop thinking of Posthuman as a single unit. It is several units using a same name, with special game mechanic linking them. Furthermore, you've used 3 different units leaving room for others. Or are you telling me you'd be taking say Dasyu, Andromeda and a HI in the same list where you still have to fit in a Doctor and Engineer (Sophotect for 31 points is the cheapest option, with Dakini Medic+Thorakitai Engi second cheapest at 33 points). Please, enjoy your listbuilding. This is not bad game design. This is the reason Line troops will often have FO and Medic profiles to enable you to fill out specialist for cheap. Or why link-capable HI units will include specialist profiles you would never use by themselves. Why Ariadna has access to a mercenary in normal gameplay (WarDriver). If anything, profiles like Interventor HD+ Lieutenant are much worse design (although I would still say acceptable) since you really have little reason not to take one, especially if you are taking remotes. Or REMs with Repeaters built-in. No. Now you are introducing even more units. Not to mention you can use Netrods and Dakinis even without Posthumans, meaning you cannot make up for the difference in Orders, since you'd either be using those units in the other list or now you are taking stuff away from that other list to make up for the points difference. No, Netrods are borderline pricing. It is not just missing the table or scattering to vulnerable spots. It is filling your combat groups with inert pieces which provide absolutely nothing to your list except maybe an Order or two (or max 3) during the entire game. It gives you no AROs, no tripwires, no bonus to the mission (aside from a few army points in some missions, which is honestly minor especially due to the liability in the killed-army-points missions), they cannot even Discover. Hell, you can no longer transfer them between combat groups. If you want to look for a crutch in Aleph, it is Netrods, because we need those cheap orders just to maintain level playing ground with other factions.
But the posthuman is a ‘single unit’. It just comes with a variety of loadouts, just as a daikini - and btw you don’t see many daikini combis opposed to medics, or ordinary thorakitai over FOs, so other troops have superior loadouts too.
I'm not quite sure I fully agree with your comparisons or conclusions. Though I think it may also be a matter of how we approach list building. I normally view the MK 1 as filling in for what I don't have already, typically if Macheon is in my list I go for a hacker or engineer. Sometimes I have "what I want already" and am trying to fill out the last few points in my list, and why not add a 3rd post human is the answer. But I can also see how you can view that as out competing the sophie as well. I still disagree with you about the MK 2 assualt hacker, KHDs are very good, and the MK 2 doesn't fill in for that, they also don't have a FO with mines. I agree on the sniper. I am a little puzzeled by your assertion that the mk 3 could use a buff, but the mk 4 is too good an a no brainer. 1 arm and 3 bts is a fair trade off against the changed move value for similar points. They're all fairly basic beaters. The msv deva does it better than all of them against camo or though smoke, but requires help. I don't really think any of these profiles are problematic personally. I agree that the FO is the biggest offender, and I can see where you are going with the comparison to thrasemedes and andromedae. I don't think thats a fair comparison though. Both those two models are filled with some bloat in CC abilities they never want to use, and are from a sectorial which is thematically supposed to have weak infiltration. Even without the FO post human, I would never take those to in Vanillla. When I build lists I still consider Naga/Daysus to be similarly optimized compition. They are more expensive still, but at least perform well in their roles. If any profile needs to cost more this guy is certainly it. Generally I'd be okay with a price increase on profiles for 1, 2, and 5. I don't think the 3 and 4 are in a place where they out compete anything. Also I feel like we look at this in a vacuum, look how much better the post humans are then their compitition, and in raw stats and abilities they are, but G jumper still has limitations. When you're mk 2 and 5 both have a supply crate, you can't move them both back with a coordinated order, they both can't do an attack aro at the same time, or a hacking aro at the same time, that certainly can be played around, but you need to be cognicent of it, and not screw up during the game, there are extra vulnerabilities to be exploited. Does it make up for the point discount? Maybe not quite? I don't think its quite as clear cut as you seems to.
It makes little sense fixing posthumans just by giving them a simple price hike comparable to non-jumper troops. The point in them game design wise is to give a number starved elite army the versatility needed to win the game. So instead of Jumper being just a boon to the troop, it needs to be balanced by flaws. The old mechanic, where they put a cap on the maximum orders in a group was a good way to justify a discount. The messy way, their activation screwed up the MK2 surprise was a bad one, as it just ruined one of the hallmark strengths defining that troop type.
Posthumans are one of several units that got multiple buffs in HSN3 when they maybe only needed one. In 2nd edition they were more expansive and also prevented you from getting 10 orders in a combat group. In HSN3 they were both discounted and had a rules changes that made them only take one combat group slot, along with several other minor improvements. To my mind, the combat group rules change was far more important for overall playability, and the points discount and other rules tweaks combine to make them a bit too good for their cost.
Why though? They even removed the downside of them, where they were unable jump after being isolated. In fact, I can’t think of any downsides with them anymore, they literally lost the reason for justifying their big discount.
Yeah. I'm glad they've cleaned up the rules, as N2 version was messy and unncesarily complicated. HSN3 version is much cleaner and streamlined. But it would be good for them to keep at least some downsides. Vulnerability to Isolation, making Jumper Comms Equipment and so being affected by Blackout. Not allowing AI Beacons to store PH order after all Proxies go down.
Their discout in due to the fact that all 2 or 3 only generate a single Order. As for disadvantages, you still cannot coordinate more than one of them at a time (which sounds like whatever but try playing lists with them and you'll constantly notice it), and they still only ever provide you with one meaningful ARO (and yes, you usually try to set it up so no more than 1 will ever have a chance to ARO but it will still happen during games and when it happens it's a big deal). I'd be fine with making them vulnerable to Isolation, although as I said, I don't think it is necessary. G:Jumper being Comms equipment could work, but honestly, it's a trap. For one, it would make them super-vulnerable against Nomads and almost irrelevant against everyone else because no-one else has Repeater networks and routinely bring non-KHDs. This would be bad. Making them use more than one Combat Group slot would ban them from Limited Insertion-style lists, which not just means LI games but also significant part of Aleph list-building. Aleph costs are significant and we often play LI lists even in normal games if we want to bring some fun toys.e AI Beacons storing Proxy order would not bring down effectiveness of Proxies but effectiveness of AI beacons. As I mentioned, I think they're already marginal in effectiveness. So Hacker and REMs are a single unit? I guess Celestial Guards and Kuang-Shi are just different loadouts of the same unit...
They pay some extra CC...and... With Maestro out there, and the Danavas, the H+ profile with Combi rifle and MSV3 is a little... (down it to 55 or so without MSV3, drop the CC weapon, give it a Multi Weapon, ready to go), the Spitfire profile needs an Lt option on Vedic, and, as mentioned by other people, not having smoke on Vedic would make her MSV3 profiles mostly useless (because of the much much cheaper Deva, who ignores hackers and has to worry only about Shock). Except Morat and Onyx have Fireteams, and EC has Imetrons... so literally the Netrods with 1 less AVA. Plus, their EVO has a Combi Rifle for +1 point, and rolls in a S3 package (both unique details on all the game). Also, Morat are inmunne to Isolation and Loss of Lt, while Onyx' "line Infantry", the Unidrons, are very optimized for a defensive Fireteam, allowing assault pieces to have backup and orders. The problem here is that playing an elite army in a system where the randomness is so high the most logical tactic is roll as many dice as possibe, thus making the spam very optimal, is going against the optimal path. That's why I'm arguing for a limited rollback of that, so 2 or 3 posthuman bodies would need 2 slots (making it 1 body = 1 slot means you would see the 3rd body only anecdotically, even considering that before there was only 3 mks). My usual lineup is Mk1 doctor (she can heal herself), Mk2 hacker (you can always use a 21 pts hacker in the midfield, even if it's just to hide it until your last turn, and it costs the same as a shotgun Garuda, if I prefer to deploy that one instead...) and Mk4 HRL (for ARO duty, she can always dodge at 14, or 11 if surprise-shot, and unlike a TR she goes prone if Unconscious). I still try to include a Sophotect, because she costs little more than a Dactyl and lets me bring a second doctor. The Mk3 has a simple problem: 2 SWC cost because of the Spitfire. Give her a Multi Rifle or Mk12 profile for 0-0.5 SWC and she will see much more table. The Mk5 shooter has a simple problem: 10 more points give you the Agema with mk12, who doesn't have NWI, but has MSV2 for smoke combo, and X-Visor that turns the Mk12 into a very OP weapon, while MMX is... at this moment, and considering the troops with it, useless as anything but as a Tax. Make the Mk5 shooter lose the MMX and give it an X-Visor, and she will see much more table, even if paying 1-2 extra points. The main disadvantage of the Posthumans? No Cube, so no rerroll when healing. And clunky rules, thanks to Jumper including Remote Presence, but since they don't have STRucture they cannot benefit from the engineer's rerroll... so only the Courage is used (greatly worded: check remote presence when reading Jumper, see it would have been the same if they just wrote "courage" instead of Remote Presence).
This was a viable arguments before HSN3, when each Proxy was taking a place in a combat group, so with three proxies you could have 8 orders max. Right now three bodies still give one order, but also don't block combat group slots. And when 56 pts/2.5 SWC buys you a great FO, TO Camo hacker and S5 HI with a good weapon it's very easy to fill the rest of your army with good units and still have good order pool. Yeah, additional profile for Mk.3 would be nice. Mk.5 Mk12 will be more useful if PH will end up in OSS, with no Agema to compete.
Taking a Mk2 Hacker, Mk5 FO and Mk1 Engineer is 41pts of awesomeness, but it's also 41pts for one order. Of course, it means you've gone for three bodies rather than two, but I think three bodies is definitely worth it considering what you get for it. It's ace, and almost an auto-include (especially if you then take Machaon for a Doctor LT, and now you've got four specialists at WIP 15, one of each type, and all of them with ODD/Mimetism, NWI and good gunfighting ability). It it too good? Well it's definitely beatable. I dunno if I'd call it too good, AVA 1 really limits them. I once played a game of AVA T Posthumans with just REMs as the other options and... it kind of sucked. But I think that if they were AVA 2, you wouldn't see max AVA of them all over. They're great, but in practise, they seem to be within tolerable balance limits.
A little detail, btw. I'm guessing we will be limited to 2 Netrods, probably, like the greeks, to compensate for the fireteams.
I honestly don’t understand, what you’re getting at here - it comes off, as you’re just being argumentative?
Well, yes, but that is the point. It's a very good filler profile that enables much wider array of playstyles; it is not broken by itself. If it was AVA3, it would have been iffy, but it is AVA1 (and I'm 99% it will stay that way). I was making an equivalence that you need one unit to be able to take another unit does not make those 2 units same. As much as for Posthuman. They have a special rule that allows multiple units to be taken together.
So what you're saying is that for 1 point more than a Dasyu Assault hacker I can get a better one (+1 BS, +1 WIP) and then I get one of the best engineers in the game for free and then add a Forward Deploying Specialist with burst 4 AP/Shock also for free. I mean, I like Posthumans as a concept and they shouldn't be the same cost as a full trooper but if you think they're either internally or externally balanced then I've got a bridge to sell you!
The Dasyu has a Combi-Rifle Colbrook! A proper gun! Undeniable tactical superiority outside of 8" is undeniable! Don't try your Nomad Propaganda here :P
Hey! I'm a PanO player, we brought you into this world and we'll take you right out again if you start giving us lip :P
