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Yan Huo Neurocinetics once more

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Mahtamori, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So I don't think the fix to the Yan Huo actually works as intended strictly mechanically.

    Now, it may be that the red box in the below link is missing clarification that it only applies to round bracket MODs, which would make perfect sense and would clarify how a lot of things like Double Shot works, but there is nothing that prevents the burst bonus from being applied in the active turn as well because you're forced to use that skill which puts the weapon's burst to 1 and then you get a +1B on that from the bracket bonus.
    https://infinitythewiki.com/index.php?title=Skills_and_Equipment_in_Infinity

    This, by the way, would be fine but it'd be confusing.

    As the game balance is concerned; in my opinion Yan Huo ML at B2 in both active and reactive would still be a niche profile with very little practical impact on the sectorial's or vanilla faction's power level. "Missile Launcher (Double Shot)" and then scrap the extra ML profile would probably work a lot better.
     
    #1 Mahtamori, Oct 29, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  2. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Not gonna defend the wording of Neurocinetics, but I believe the intention is that you treat the Troopers Active turn burst as it's Reactive Turn and vice versa. So Missile (+1 Burst) becomes Burst 2 in reactive (because that's what it would ordinarily count as for Active), and it's Active turn burst drops to 1 (what it should ordinarily be in Reactive).

    I hate having to draw from N3 to justify N4 rules, but it was FAQ'd in N3 and the profile is still the same - so I assume the intent is the same. It is just a shame the wording wasn't clarified for the new edition;
    upload_2020-10-29_20-35-12.png

    Note - re-eyeballing it. The wording is basically identical between editions.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Click the link and read the red box.

    Like I wrote; I don't think this works mechanically as intended. I'm not sure they have left themselves a mechanical way to actually accomplish exactly what they want with this profile.
     
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    The new profile states Neurocinetics (+1 B)

    This should means that whenever you use the Neurocinetics skill (that is an Obligatory skill), you apply the bonus, regardless of the standard limitation of "active turn only".
    Reading it AS WRITTEN is B2 both Active and Reactive turn.
    Reading it AS WE SUPPOSE IS INTENDED (same as N3) is B1 Active turn and B2 Reactive turn.
     
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  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think the intent here is very clear. This unit had very similar technical wording issues in N3 and the FAQ said to play it in the most straightforwardly obvious way (B 2 in reactive, B 1 in active).
     
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  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Honestly, I can’t believe Neurocinetics survived to N4.

    The whole theme of N4 was getting rid of nested rules or janky interactions, which is why they removed falling mechanics or made it so it was no longer the opponent who placed the model that performed Engage and so on.

    With that mindset, it baffles me that they chose to let Neurocinetics survive as it’s exactly the kind of shit that was frustrating for new players to understand.

    “Oh, so this rule is kinda like Total Reaction but not really, even though they appear to cost the same”

    “Oh, so this 1 profile technically doesn’t work as described so you’ll have to know beforehand that actually there’s a FAQ, in a separate document that explains how this profile ACTUALLY work.”

    None of this shit would be necessary if they would just replace Neurocinetics with Total Reaction across the board.

    Regarding balance, don’t tell me a lone unlinkable Sin Eater would actually be within the realms of what constituted “OP” or that BS11 Digimon thing that Tohaa have access to but is never actually used because it’s like a TR-REM except worse in every conceivable way.

    @HellLois Do yourself a favour, make an errata which voids the entire section of Neurocinetics and refer to Total Reaction, then correct all (3-4?) units that have that rule and be done with it.
    It’s much easier for you and everyone involved.
     
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  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    But that will mean the Yan Huo Neuro ML will lose it's B3 Heavy Pistol ARO. Won't you think of the children!
     
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  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I was honestly wondering if they were going to drop Neurocinetics; it’s definitely on pretty shaky ground as far as distinct identity and number of units.
    • Yan Huo - no objections; there’s already an active turn missile profile, and TR would just unify them.
    • Sin Eater - the original unit for the rule; this would be a fluff violation, but would make it a much more useful unit. If desired, the fluff could have been updated to reflect changes to the process or training for Sin Eater candidates in the Observancy.
    • Chaksa HMG - somewhere in between? I have no strong opinions here.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Fucking this times a thousand
     
  10. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Is TR not going to have exactly the same interaction problems with burst bonuses in the reactive turn?
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Presumably you would fix that in the same errata for Total Reaction that deletes Neurocinetics for being a worthless vestigal relic of a rule.

    Either way an errata is required to unfuck the situation for the Yan Huo, so we might as well do some general house cleaning and get rid of the worthless rule and make the profile actually worth taking while we're at it, same goes for improving the other models that never see play because Neurocinetics is shit.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It's been a few years since I played Tohaa, but I certainly remember getting a lot of mileage out of Chaksa Auxiliar HMGs.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Probably the most acceptable of the units currently saddled with the rule, but the time between has only seen power growth which all of these models have fallen behind on. All of them could use an improvement.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It would, yes, hence why I suggested Double Shot in the original. I'm convinced burst bonuses that are not printed directly on a profile do work in reactive.
     
  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    While I'm not really in favour of it, there's no real reason to give burst bonuses to any of the TR Units, so while this would be a theoretical issue it won't be an actual one.
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    A hypothetical dual ML Yan Hu with total reaction instead of neurocinetics would have this problem.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    In my defence I haven't had coffee yet this morning. But wow my post was very much dumb masquerading as smart.
     
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  18. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Helot Militia all have Neurocinetics, fwiw. I'm not sure if a 9 point 0.5 SWC TR SMG and light rocket launcher that starts in a marker state sounds slightly busted to anyone else, but it certainly makes for an attractive "filler" unit despite being Irregular at that point, even with the low BS, because their Surprise Attack can't be used in reactive so it conflicts with neurocinetics...but would make them nasty with TR.

    I'd personally also like to see the Yan Huo Neurocinetics profile get...something...because dedicated ARO pieces have such a tough time, and because he's not competitive in-faction. In vanilla there are many good ARO piece options for less points.

    In Invincibles...oof. You can stick a Zuyong Missile Launcher in a Haris and get a TR B2 ML (albeit at 1 lower BS), or in a Core to get what amounts to a TR Yan Huo with +2 BS, and either of those options saves you 10 points and fills a spot in a link team. (The fact that the ML Zuyong is not an auto-include in Invincibles core links says a lot about the competition for points and SWC in that sectorial. B2 BS13 ML with Sixth Sense, shooting at effectively no range mod within 8" using DAM 14 AP+EXP, or safely shooting with effective BS16 EXP impact templates that can reach all the way across the board, and B2 even in ARO...come on now.)

    To make the Yan Huo at least competitive with a linked Zuyong ML, a visor would be nice, either X Visor (which makes him slightly better at long range than the linked Zuyong, and absolutely bonkers at point-blank range with hit mode) or MSV, or maybe triangulated fire instead of a visor.

    Alternately, since the Yan Huo line are all supposed to be sporting TAG weaponry, and other non-TAG models now have BS Attack (+1 DAM), maybe all of the profiles could use that skill instead?

    I dunno, man, something.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Ah fuck forgot about those assholes
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I'm not entirely sure that they're that bad in N4.

    But add 2pts or so.

    Sin Eaters and YHs won't really notice it. Helots will.
     
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