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Working with Winterforce, we don't forget about you

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Urobros, Jun 25, 2021.

  1. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    I think sometimes Pano players forget us about Winterforce, we even don't have a "main topic pinned" talking about Winterforce. Shame!!

    The true is I was one of that players who dislike Winterforce at first, but later, after several games with Winterforce I began to see how the sectorial works and I like it, even the "dammed Boyg (mk12)" can work properly. But that was in N3.

    N4, at least for the moment, had suits Winterforce pretty well. It hasn't the toys that any of the others sectorials, and the new arrival of MO had eclipsed a little the "snow sectorial". I had a fistfull of matches with Winter and I'am now even confident to put the guys to work in a Tournament. That is why I started the topic :) to share with other Pano players the "experience" and encourage the "Winer players" to talk.

    So, go for it and talk about Winterforce :)

    First. What is different in Winterforce?

    Almost no "camo units" and none with AD. Winter only has acces to the Kunai as hidden deployment and Uma, with camo marker state, this last with no infiltration or forward deployment skills. So, "no surprises", no tools to make your rival waste orders trying to discover that "empty camo".

    This is one of the greater handicaps Winter has and one of the main reasons why Winter dislike so many players.

    I have to agree in this particulary point, that lack of "tools" is a great disavantage.

    Second. Half Table Control?

    With only a few units: nokkens, locust, kunai, peacemaker and liankai with the ability to begin the match outside the deployment zone, only the kunai wiht "some too to remain hidden", the options here are really limited and no the best ones. But yet, Winter have some tools to "work" outside the control zone. So, why is this "second point" a problem: because the no camo state ability, this make too easy for the enemy counter the half table control of winter, or make too easy for some factions. Others with no too many MVL1,2,3 and "cheap profiles" with templates could have a hard time trying to put down nokken or locust.

    One isolated nokken or locust will be easy to catch, but if we bring to the table a few, then problably things works a little better for the winter player. Still none are cheap profiles, we should have this in consideration while making the list. For me, how the "half table control" has work in winterforce is putting all the nokkens and locust I possible can, and one or two peacemakers. This could be a gift for a enemy with a lot of templates or visors, but hell for someone without the right tools. But this kind of "extreme list" aren't for every player's taste.

    Third. Fireteam Composition Flexibility.

    This probably is the "Seal" of Winterforce, his "trade mark". Probably will be the most flexible Pano sectorial when we talk abour fireteam options. Winter players have acceso to a big number of fireteams and wildcards.

    Here is where I think resides the winter "surpresive game" and the "power of the sectorial". We can do use of a lot of fireteam core, haris or duo, and choose the setting acordly on what we want to deploy, or to do, if we go first o second.

    If we have this clear in our mind, and we take it in consideration in the moment when we "build the list", we can put in the table true "killing machines". Yes, probably the enemy can wait for the Karhu Feuerbach, but where this guy will be? In a "haris", in a "core", "duo", alone? The "attack" vectors are a lot.

    Fourth. Heavy Guys.

    We have a few HI in Winterforce: ORCs, Justice K, Hospitalliers and the Boyg. Some with special fireteam rules, others wildcard others only haris, other only duo... But all of them "great" in his role.

    ORCs provides a resilent platform for heavy weapons in our fireteams, but no special skills included, pretty much the same as they do in other Pano sectorials, with the OM exception.

    Justice K. Another "heavy piece" for our fireteams. With the wildcard option it can be place where more work can do in that exactly moment, and too it will be a "reserve" for our "main fireteam" if we let aside in the first game steps.

    Hospitalliers, a good haris fireteam choice if we are looking for "strenght", we can do use of some wilcards to make the haris cheaper and have only the exactly "hospitallier we want".

    Boyg, the dammed, because pretty much nobody likes this guy. While I have to agree with the general feeling about the boyg in the case of the ML profile, I really disagree with the "mk12" profile. Itsn't a profile for every "match", but in games to 200 or 400 points have some use and too in 300. We can have a heavy resilent platform for no SWC cost. This is something to not be ignored.

    The thing is that we do use of too much heavy guys probably we will finish playing LI, this will make hard to play, but even we lose troups, probably we can manage to have a full five member fireteam the entire match. No all the sectorials can say that.

    Fith. The Really big big guy. Jotum.

    Same as for probably all TAGs in Pano, if you want to play a TAG, the best place will be the sectorial where the TAG can be found. Jotum isn't any exception to that rule, at least for me. If you include a Jotum in the list, probably, same as if you play with too many HI, you will play LI. Still, NCO Karhu and Tactical Awareness for TAGs can do something for our orders pool, but yet is one of the worst handicaps Winter has.

    Sixth. Close Combat.

    Pano isn't the best CC faction, not even when we look at MO, but in Winterforce I think has the best chance to play CC. We have three different CC profiles: Liankai, Shona y Gunnar, Justice K can do some work in this area but I thin isn't his main capacity. Every one of that three profiles bring some different to the table and become a thread to pretty much everything with no CC capabilites, and more, we have some defense against the enemy CC specialist.

    Here is where the "duo" options become more usefull, because we can attach our CC specialist to a HI with a powerfull long range weapon and lead the way until stay close to the enemy. It isn't how the most of CC specialist in this game "reach" the CC, but is the "Winter way".

    Seventh. BS "Supremacy"

    A lot of you will say: "Of ocurse, this is Pano", and think "but others can shoot better"... The thing with winterforce is the sectorial has a lot of profiles with BS13, some with 12 or 14, and only one with BS 15 (jotum), but the thing here is you can put on the table a lot of profiles with mimetism, so when you have to face BS against BS, probably you will shoot better than anyone in front of you.

    Yes, of course, still are a lot of profiles with acces to some abilities like "marksmanship", plus visor, plus five fireteam members... Of course in this case "nothing shoots" better, but don't forget that "probably" only will be a couple of that guys in the whole enemy list, so "in general terms" our "list" will shoot better in most cases.

    This "seven paragraphs" explains, I believe, really well what is winterforce as a Sectorial, leaving the profile review aside.

    Maybe the biggest challenge when playing Winter is to made the list, because you need to take in consideration exactly what do you want to do. You need to have the "plan" before the battle.

    To finish I give you an example:

    MONCADA_2_IL_Con_NisseyBoyg
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35)
    KNIGHT OF JUSTICE Spitfire / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 47)
    ORC Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37)
    NISSE Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
    SHONA CARANO Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    MACHINIST WinterFor (Mimetism [-3], Terrain [Total]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    GUNNAR MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt / Pistol, Trench-Hammer, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    BØYG Mk12 / Heavy Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 46)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I did use this list several times in the past few weeks with several degrees of succes and failure. Sometimes it worked really well, others maybe "bad", but always I had fun, so I say "it works".


    What is the "idea" behind the list.

    Going First.

    Gunnar + Boyg have to work. The boyg lead the way until the objetives, then Gunnar pushes some buttons and both take covert and waits the enemy.

    If Gunnar + Boyg can't do the "job" then will be "the haris".

    ARO Turn.

    This was really dependant on what I'was facing. I tried everytime to only take control over half of my table with "boyg", "nisse", justice, orc, maybe Karhu. For the HI, if one wound was taken, I fail guts and forced my rival to "search" my injured troup, maybe "exposing" him to another ARO piece. Most of the times the Boyg ended dead as ARO piece, but it took a goo amount of the oder enemy's pool.

    With Shona and Gunnar well placed both did a lot of preasure over the "killer enemy pieces" because they didn't want to remain close to none of them.

    Last Turn,

    It would be responsability for the core to finish the job. Most games, if "haris and duo" were killed the core remains intact, so I still was capable of do some damage and push some buttons.

    Yes, it is IL, but I have "like 12 orders". I have some pieces with NWI, Doged or 2 wounds, that allow me some "durability".


    So... what do you think about Winter, guys? Have some played with it successfully? Let me know!! :)
     
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  2. SpectralOwl

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    I gave serious consideration to playing WinterFor on release, but was turned off by how reliant it is on Fireteams. If you're not actively using Fireteams, you aren't getting any value out of Sval. It does, however, seem strong if you're one of the types who likes using their Fireteams as a key tool instead of lots of forward deployment or fast pieces.
     
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  3. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely right... Winterforce "is fireteam". You don't make the list with "one ARO core" and "one Active Haris", for example, you build the list taking in consideration how the troups there can be "linked" in oder "to have succes". Of course you can build some extreme lists with a lot of Nokkens, Peacemakers and Locust, but they will not be the "canon".

    I have to add, that Winter is probably thanks to Shona, Liankai and Gunnar, the most "CC" focused pano Sectorial. Yes, more than MO.
     
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  4. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday we had a little tournament close to my town, 20 people, so I had the chance to put Winterforce to work.

    As regular in ITS Tournament I did two list, but in the end I only did use of one of them:

    MONCADA_1_2grupos
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10)
    ORC Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37)
    KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35)
    FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    NISSE Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34)
    MACHINIST WinterFor (Mimetism [-3], Terrain [Total]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    SHONA CARANO Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    AGNES Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    BULLETEER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23)
    GUNNAR MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt / Pistol, Trench-Hammer, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

    5.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    The missions were:

    Decapitation (Victory vs Nomads)
    Supremacy (Defeat vs CA)
    Unmasking (Victory vs Aleph)

    The dices of course helped to the victory, (and the defeat) all games were funny and intense, the second match was dependand on an HMG ORC shooting against a Shrouded Hacker, with B3 and later B4, I was uncapable of kill that little bastard, so I couldn't win the quadrant I needed, so my enemy won.

    I have to say that the "second little group" with Gunnar+Bullet spitfire duo, was a pleasant surprise. It worked really well in two of three games.

    What I'am realized of after a few games with Winter, is you can put on the table some CC units which Pano players aren't used to. Shona+Gunnar+Liankai are all of then something really dangerous for the expensive pieces, so the enemy don't want to be close to the trio. This works really well. Plus, not all the half table profiles have a easy way to put down any of these three. So, I believe I can claim that Winterforce is the "most CC suited sectorial". Not as we are used to see on table, a lot of CC specialist with several deployment tools, but CC specialist which remains attached to a "fireteam" until they can go solo and do a lot of harm.

    MO could be seeing as the CC Pano sectorial, but even when the knights are good, they aren't true CC specialists, yes, they can kill a lot only in CC, and a lot of CC specialist don't want to engage against the knights, but they are truly in the "low tier as CC specialist", so "Winter", with less CC troups per profile, is more CC suitable. At least in my humble opinion.
     
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  5. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I had only one game with SWF, that was Mind Wipe and I think that I was lucky, because my opponent had Haq Vanilla list, that wants to go first, but he choose second turn in the hope to archive something late turn. I had a Nisse core that later dominated the table and split on the way. My KoJ was supported by a Hospitaller BSG and a Infirmarmer and head to the servers. The Locust acting as überhacker. It worked pretty good.

    So I think, I am the fireteam guy ;-) and soon I will try out my Jotums ;-) I like SWF a lot, more of the thematic side. It is a relative blunt sectorial. You bring firepower, either armoured or with mimetism, that also cancels other mimetism. Your weakness is the not camo, not AD (what was my biggest disapointment about Svarl, I hoped for some Walkyries, CCish with paramedic or doctor options) and a more or less weak midfield (until your troops reached it).

    I like it and I hope I can soon test it our, because painting is nearly finished.
     
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  6. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I had several matches "in N3", and some during the "COV-Enclosure" thanks to the TTS, but until this past weekend I had not play a tournament with them.

    Of course, if you want to play Jotum Winterforce is the place.


    PS. Because asking is free:@Koni @HellLois @Bostria some comments about the future Karhu? :) Can we hope to see one of this guys soon or... maybe later?
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Basically every Sval list I ever build runs a Group 1 that can mix and match a Core+Haris(+Duo sometimes).
    How flexible and effective the Links are, and the Karhu glue that holds them toghether, is the one thingt that makes the Sectorial good.
    Outside of the Links there isn't much.
    The Boyg is meh compared to a KoJ in a Haris or Core. Locusts and Nokken can be good if you're able to achieve a certain level of midfield saturation. Which is very hard to do and pricey with the options Sval has - you basically have to give up on running a workhorse Haris to load up on Peavemakers, Nokk FOs and a Locust or two if you want to go this route - other Sectorials (like SAA) simply do midfield presence better.
    The Jotum is nice and I like the Duo, but you again have to forfeit the workhorse Haris/Core flex group to fit it in. Vanilla just has the better support options (and slightly better TAGs than the Jotum).

    As it happens a buddy is gonna play a tournament next month and we were brainstorming PanO list ideas over the weekend. Started out with Vanilla, considered MO because of Mindwipe being in there and then circled around to Sval to have MO's CC capability with a better defensive Core and more Mobility.
    3-4 basic Fusiliers in Group 1 is ironically one of the better defenses against Spec Firing LGLs and Pitcher into Missile Tactics and you're happy to have them to build and rebuild Links anyway.

    That said most Sval Lists end up very similar for me.
    Orc FB universal ARO piece, Karhu FB universal gunner/backup ARO.
    Workhorse Haris:
    Variant 1: Koj Spitfire, Orc C+/Tinbot/BSG, Karhu Engineer (If you have the 2 extra points KOJ D-Charges/FD4 is well worth it)
    Variant 2: Orc HMG, KoJ Hacker, Orc C+/Tinbot/BSG
    Variant 3: Hospitaler HMG, Hospitaler Doc, Karhu Engineer

    1&2 can opt to Core for i.e. scoring or Objective room missions or to have the FD4" KoJ Spitfire as additional durable ARO piece for turn 1.

    For any other list concept I always end up switching Sectorials.
    Overall Sval itself is pretty sad for me.
    Locusts having no way to enable their CC and ofc their Specialist is a Hacker... without a way to protect himself
    Nokken only having 1 good Profile (FO) the rest are barebones boring.
    There's 1(!) Sectorial only Profile you're actually using in Sval - the Orc C+ BSG - and it's not like I wouldn't bring the MR variant in NCA, SAA and Varuna instead to replace his role.
    Your DZ is littered with Flash Pulses, Combi Rifles and that's it, no Mines, no (linked)DTWs, no expendable Auxbots/bodies, no Perimeter, no annoying Neurokinetics Camo Tokens. The Kunai Ninja is about the only surprise you can bring, hard to fit and in between a BS11 MSR and Shock CCW not that scary. Can be pretty tricky to defend properly.with the tools available.

    Overall I'd still give them a B. All their stuff is quite obvious but you'll have to get through it. They get good value out of link composition, AVA3 Fugazi, min maxed Karhu and a bit of Frenzy, but not anywhere close to what's possible elsewhere with frills on top.
     
    #7 Teslarod, Jun 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  8. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    This is the key, I believe. The fireteams + Karhu.

    About the boyg, if we are talking about the one with the ML, yes, KoJ+2 others any guys is better, but Boyg mk12 has for sure his spot in a lot of lists. You can put te SWC in a lot of things and still have a "big guy", which in addition can bring with him some "wildcart" with capacity to push buttons.

    I would add to that "horse haris" the nisse hmg one, even the vargar with mk12+minelayer (ey, we have some, a little hidden, but it is there).

    About the nokken I have to say I love te minelayer profile too, even the spitfire one, but in general, nokkens are for matches where you know who your rival ist, not for a tournament where you need to be "flexible".

    About the Locust, the hacker option is, for sure, one of that cases which makes the ITS statistics Corvus gattered as if the Locust were a good profile because people do use of it, but the reality is that people put the guy in the lists because they haven't any other choice.

    Still, if you are willing to do it, you can put a pretty decent list with a lot of half table presence, but you will pray to not face Ariadna XD

    The thing, to make it short, is that Winter is the sectorial to play with the fireteam options. You need to have in mind what you want to do in game for every round. With winter I think "this duo" should be use at first turn, this "haris/duo" for the second, and the "core" for the last. Or this will be the fireteam composition if I go first and face other sectorials with heavy AROpieces, and this one if I go second... Here is where the fun with winter stays and where the "key" to "do a good job" with it, and maybe this will be the "hard part of play Winter" and, at the same time, the funny and not funny one.

    :)
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Barely ever have issues with SWC in N4. On the contrary, if I run out of SWC or appear to need more, there's probably not enough focus in the list to get every job done properly and I need to reevalue the choices, upgrade pieces or remove guns for utility/Specialists.
    Any Boyg variant is inferior to the respective KoJ in a link that suits him - mostly due to BTS9 + Firewall, S2, 6-2 Move and CC capability being rather substantial upgrades for roughly the same points.
    Nisse and Varg are alright in a vaccuum, just not next to Karhu outclassing them. Since any given list can easily use 3 Karhu in ways that matter, there's not much of a point to not just get the C+ 6-2 body over a slowboi.
     
  10. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    In N4 it is true that we don't face the same issues with SWC as we did back in N3, still, it isn't unfrequent to have 5 SWC in a 300 match, so you can't have another KoJ spitfire... for example, then you can take the boyg. Yes, "boyg" is a little slower than KoJ or ORCs, but in ITS12 we can find a lot of missions with 0G, where the "boyg" can have sobre bright thanks his "terrain (total)".

    Nisse and Vargar hardly can be compared with the Karhu, one have VML2 and the other Albedo, both with some advantages. Not all Winter is Karhu while all the fireteams round around him :)
     
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