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*wishlist* Making JSA beginner friendly - a solid Medium Infantry core

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Cabaray, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. Cabaray

    Cabaray Well-Known Member
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    First off: JSA is wonderful for drawing in new players. The Dutch Meta had new guys coming in with Uprising, cause the loved the ninjas and samurai look. But they are having a though time playing the army, cause JSA is Infinity's hard mode. New players have a steep curve to overcome to really get the most out of the JSA. And since the regular learning curve with other armies, already asks commitment from beginners, JSA can be rough.

    I do not think JSA is bad, but I would love a unit that would help out the Beginners getting into the hobby. Make JSA a bit "easier" to use. I think that would be a bog standard Medium Infantry with some long range and specialists that can be the backbone of the JSA force. So new players can still go wild with Ninjas, Oniwabans and bikes, while having some groundpounders that have their backs when things go sour. Call them Ronin, that have to still earn their Samurai amor (or their is not enough armor within JSA to go around). Who have some good ballistic skill, HMG's, Heavy Rocket Launchers, Sniper, Paramedics, Hackers and Forward Observers. Not to spiffy to keep the costs low, cause you still want the points to bring in the crazy ninja stuff.

    That would be a unit that will help beginners get the basics down and get some bang for their buck.

    Your thoughts?
     
    #1 Cabaray, Jul 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    JSA's limited access to long range weaponry and smoke, and lack of drop troops are all design choices of the army, not flaws.

    I would rather see reworks of units in the army into things that are actually fieldable, for example, reworking Musashi, buffing the Shikami (with faster movement, better loadouts, forward deployment, or frenzy), and adding tools to Domaru that make the Domaru core more fieldable.
     
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  3. Cabaray

    Cabaray Well-Known Member
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    Just to add a bit to it. I do not think JSA is flawed at all and I understand the design choice. I think JSA has its place in Infinity and I love what it does.it is just not that beginner friendly in my experience, while drawing in said beginners. I explain the same stuff to them: this is the army that does not have the range and such. My new players "get it" eventually, but it takes some frustration with the army first before they get there. As a Warcor I had to put in effort to keep people on board with infinity, and get deep into JSA so I could explain the high risk high reward nature of the faction.

    In the end, I got some very experience players once they got over the learning curve. So the effort was worth it, but I could do with a MI unit to make the next incoming new JSA player a bit easier when putting their toes into the hobby.
     
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with @Cabaray that JSA is one of the harder armies to play. Always has been, even when it was still part of YJ.

    But I also agree that JSA is really attractive to new players due to visual style. I mean, it's an anime-inspired game, so of course there are lots of Space Ninja/Samurai fanboys out there.
     
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  5. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The unit you're describing already exist. They're called Tanko Zensenbutai, and they're not too shabby.

    As noted above, JSA doesn't really want for new units. It's very thematically complete and well executed. JSA is conceptually sound. What it does need is for several units and fireteams to be updated to keep up with more modern factions. Meikyoushisui brings up most of the units that require attention. Tune up those guys, open up fireteams composition a bit, and JSA is everything it needs to be.
     
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  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    JSA is tricky but it has amazing tools, as said before the army needs some updates; I won't oppose to get some extra units like a MI tho.

    A new player needs to learn how to use well the tools of the faction, an oniwaban failing or accomplish a kill in the enemy TAG or the enemy spearhead HI (Aquila, Kriza...) can change a game completely; so practicing that with them might be a good way; Shinobu is amazing but Saito should be enough most of the time.
    JSA has smoke and MSV2 that is also very powerful (and learning to use this is also learning to not suiciding yojimbo too soon), that's another key part.
    JSA HIs are very vulnerable to Hacking, so using the right support and abilities is also important (defensive programs with hackers, engineers, KHDs, use stealth in repeater range...); the E/M is another thing to keep in the radar.
    Karakukis after the TI rework are very very good, those should be very safe for newbies too.
     
  7. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I can understand the original poster's concerns. For example, I'm happy with the flexible linkability of Domaru, but I'm not super pleased with their profiles. I've also happy with the profiles of Tanko, but not their linkability or link options. For other armies, I feel like I have creative options. For JSA, I'm all-too-conscious of their constraints. I find that this heavily impacts my excitement or enthusiasm about JSA... It's just hard to fit things into a list while still giving them enough orders for that short-range emphasis that JSA values.
     
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  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'd like more armies like JSA... Trade offs are a good thing to have; if you want some heavy weapons linked, you should play for the privilege.
    But taking in count the kind of links other armies have i agree, JSA could use an update in the links... and the Saito operative back while they are on it :P
     
  9. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think a FD2 or mechanized deployment Domaru profile (not fireteam compatible, or duo only) would be a pretty cool tool for JSA. It'd be a meaty speed bump with some added efficiency that the Domaru desperately need.

    Mushashi needs a rework for sure. I like the idea of AD1, but anything to help his delivery would be a welcome addition.
     
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    JSA is just one of the last armies in the pre-wildcard Fireteam paradigm. I know some people claim there hasn't been any power creep, but there really clearly has in terms of how much stuff a sectorials can have access to. It's just that about 1/3 of the game is already on the other side of the creep now. JSA will get there eventually.

    As for your other point, sectorials do have restrictions like JSA does (but most of them have many less of these), and JSA has a lot of something that CB overvalues (CC ability) while struggling in some of the things that CB undervalues (smoke warbands, for example).

    The only difference in terms of the playerbase is that the strengths and limitations of JSA are more readily apparent than say, USA, which is also an underperforming sectorial (even with all the MI bonuses of ITSX, it's still not placing very well in tournaments). Even most players who don't play JSA can tell you what the army is good and bad at, but I honestly couldn't tell you what's strong and weak in USA outside of ITSX bonuses.
     
    #10 meikyoushisui, Jul 18, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Are you sure? I thought the ITS scrape showed USARF was performing fine. It's just not super popular right now because TAK is the flashy new toy.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    IIRC it was a bit below middle of the pack, it was just the first thing that came to my mind for "armies whose limitations I am not very familiar with / are hard to quantify."
     
  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    But that's my point, I've seen games ruined by it (among other things); powercreep just make all more unidimensional. I don't want JSA OP, I wan't no more 4 cheerleaders + 1 elite gunfighter BS.

    Which is kind of funny because other armies has better tools to get into CC and just murder the entire enemy list while also being more powerful at range. Fail to stop Achilles in his way in and he will eat half of your backline, and steel has easy access to cheap smoke. Or check the Makauls in Tohaa with eclipse grenades and triad...
    I do like JSA but sometimes the comparisons are odious
     
  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    That's funny because the Ikari-style Keisotsu+Tanko link would open up a lot in JSA.
     
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  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yep, but doing that in every sectorial funnel the game into "let's build the most OP link and call it a day". If you have to make a choice between bigger weapons linked (DoTanko) or cheap but shittier links (Keisotsu-Kepetai), that increase the amount of viable lists. Do you want to pay to get a tough and very dangerous link with heavy weapons? or you rather use a unlinked HI or TAG plus a cheaper but weaker link?
    Right now you have the cheaper link plus the big gun in most set ups...
    But the game is evolving into the mixed links, so I guess JSA will eventually get that Keisotus-Tanko link.
     
  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The thing is, link teams are the reason to play a sectorial. Good asymmetrical balance means buffing strengths and nerfing weaknesses, and in the case of JSA, it can't get nearly the same Fireteam benefits as other armies right now since it's line troop is one of the worst in the game in terms of stats. The thing about the new link paradigm is that now you get to pick between a bunch of flavors of utility even within a link. There are more ways to build a viable Kamau/Fusilier link than a Keisotsu or DoTanko link currently, and it does more things. The "choice" you're talking about is not really a choice, just the illusion of it, because JSA is going to take the same Keisotsu link with almost the same configuration in every game right now. The HI aren't viable at all.
     
  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    But I'm not saying JSA should get out of the actual link paradigm, but that I'd like that other armies would have similar restrictions. Links right now are cheaper and more powerful than ever, and that make pieces like HIs or TAGs far less valuable. Right now you can build a lot of more optimiced links and that reduces the ammount of viable strategies outside of "my most OP link versus your most OP link"
    I'm talking about things like 4 bounty hunters + Rui Shi links, which had to be banned with the FT:Core rule.
    I know the HIs aren't the best part of JSA, but that is a different problem.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The reason new links are like this is because sectorials were underperforming compared to vanilla. Sectorials need these link options to be competitive. There's nothing about "my strongest link vs your strongest link", a Fireteam is a tool like any other in the game.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Would making a MSR Kempeitai (MSV 2 or no) help them out in that context?
     
  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I think we are talking past each other.
    Game balance is important of course, my point is that focusing all the sectorial power in links reduce lists options and viable solo pieces and I don't like that. Is there any reason to not include a kamau multisniper MSV2 in a link in VIRD? You can do it whith any link, and it's a meta defining piece. You don't have to make any choice there.
    My point is there are other ways to balance sectorials than hiperoptimizing all the links and making an arms race among all the sectorials. Give them 5-10% extra points and SWC, include some more optimiced profiles in key pieces...
     
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