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Winter Force Reactive Options

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Nomadimp, Nov 2, 2020.

  1. Nomadimp

    Nomadimp Well-Known Member

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    Curious how people are playing SWF’s reactive turns. I haven’t put them on a table yet but just on paper it looks problematic.

    The linked karhu fuerbach is obviously a big scary ARO on par with the kamau but it’s kind of a binary outcome where you either can dominate large parts of the board or it doesn’t (unlucky f2f, white noise, dense terrain etc). The question is what’s your second layer of defense? I’m not seeing a ton of great options personally (no camo, weak infowar, few disposable units) so how are you getting the most out of what we’ve got?

    The peacemaker looks like the best speed bump and seems to justify including some kind of hacking to take advantage of the repeater. Probably just a fusilier though the BTS on the KoJ is tempting.

    Fugazi are great filler AROs but the 15 slot limit does mean that there is downside to taking all 3 and you always run the risk of folding hard to total immunity.

    The nokken and locusts are a tough sell. They seem really suboptimal but is the situation dire enough that you take them anyway?
     
  2. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Nokken minelayer is a solid option.

    Especially paired with a Peacemaker.

    Add an ORC or Karhu Feuerbach in a Core and Fugazi and you have a decent defense.
     
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  3. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    It depends very much on the list obviously. But generally either an ORC Feuerbach or a KoJ ML for ARO duty. The extra wound and armor makes them better for ARO in my opinion. They have much better chance to Blunt the enemy attack because of their toughness and can waste a lot of enemy orders. I find the Karhu a much better Active turn piece.

    The Nøkken FO with panzerfaust have been really good at detering enemy attacks also, and I find the Locust SMG + wild parrot pretty good at this too.

    IfI play with TAGs the Jotum is also and excellent order sink to present to the enemy.

    This is how I usually play defence with SWF.
     
    #3 Jotunn, Nov 2, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  4. Iver

    Iver Human Plus

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    What about the Nisse link? MSV2, Mim(-3) and decent armor makes them stupid hard to work around.

    Oh, and a KoJ missile in a core link. Solid.
     
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  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Karhu FB is very squishy and not Shock Immune.
    It's still pretty scary, especially against heavy armor, but better in Active and can still take over ARO duty in a later turn.
    Can second preferring the HI ARO pieces (KoJ ML/Orc Feuerbach) for ARO duty.

    Nisse being pretty meh in its home Sectorial is one of my gripes with Sval. Why did Varuna, who has a bag of tricks and a TO TAG, need a (Shock Immune) MSV2 Wildcard Sniper? Why did Karhu gain Wildcard and Nisses hung out to dry in a Sectorial with a much less sophisticated defense game?

    Sval is pretty much a faction about the numbers game. Everything you put on the table is obvious, the Link choices are very efficient with absolutely no surprises the ceiling is covered in low hanging fruit.

    Sval's force multipliers are Hospitalers (thanks to Frenzy in a link) and Karhu. Everything else is good, but not amazing.
    It all comes together to something better than the sum of its parts. Sval does have a unique and powerful mix of tools, VIS Mods, punch, CC(!), speed and mobility Skills on hackable and unhackable troops.

    Complete reliance on Remotes to bolster the Linked ARO piece(s) is iffy. An Orc Feuerbach a couple TR Bots and Flashpulse Bots are not terrible, but easy enough to bypass or take on. A very noticeable weakness is the usual PanO Lt situation, at least it can be mitigated somewhat by bringing a lot of potential candidates.
    NCA is likely going to trade Karhu and CC capability for TO AROs, expendable Auxbots and linkable Aquila Guard/Bolts.
    SAA brings inexpensive Sniper options, Minelayers and Auxbots galore.
    I'd argue Sval should not be as starved for options outside of Links as it is. Hassassins and Corregidor have the same or even more freedom on top of an amazing supporting cast.

    Nokken and Locust should have kits and combinations to make up for their lack of Marker State, Surprise Attack and Hidden Deployment, yet they somehow don't. Minelayer with Specialist or another tool like Deployable Repeater, Sensor or Jammer.
    Want a Minelayer? Bring a Nokken that makes every other Minelayer Skirmisher in the game look amazing.
    Want a Wildparrot? Bring a Locust with no further utility, compare to EB Paramedics for a trooper that does a similar job just much better and more reliable.
    The Nokken FO BSG+PZF is good enough for lack of competition.
    Locust BSG+Grenades+Drop Bears has a rather useful kit as well, but would like support he doesn't have in Sval to make it stick.

    This is a clear design problem. All of the Mimetism (-6) Skirmishers are pretty horrible.
    Ryuken magically got more expensive and the worst possible Specialist option for a troop that can't start the game in Marker (their HRL Profile got very nice though).
    Zerats suffer from paying for Veteran, defensive stats and expensive weapon choices at BS11. Morat player's generally have been in a pretty much straight up abusive relationship with the game for years, they mostly appear quite happy about them. In the context of the rest of the game, Zerats are probably worse than Nokken.
    This gets more annoying because CB definitely knows how to make a non Camo Skirmisher work. Andromeda, Morans, Kanren and Gangbusters all manage to be good. For one reason or the other the ODD Skirmishers suck on purpose for no apparent reason.

    Either way Sval is solid B tier and smashing their Links into someone's face is a pleasure. For anything else including TAGs and midfield presence I'd recommend looking elsewhere.
     
  6. Nomadimp

    Nomadimp Well-Known Member

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    Is the ninja HD sniper trap worth playing around with? It’s expensive but seems like it might be worth putting in occasionally just to add at least some uncertainty.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Legit forget that exists shame on me.
    On paper it's probably worth it, given the thing you can stack it with is a linked BS14 HI.
    In reality.... you can do it better and cheaper elsewhere, i.e. in Varuna with a cheaper Croc + Orc/Kamau and soon in NCA with whatever goes into Fusiliers + Hexa/Swiss.
    34 points BS11 is awful for his main job as a BS11 TO Sniper, on the plus side CC capability isn't terrible and neither is C+, just can't see the use for those sidegrades come up often enough to make the investment worth it.
    Same problem as the Nokken Minelayer, it's all you have to work with. Feels like a kick in the shins to run given that it costs about the same as a Karhu Feuerbach.
     
    #7 Teslarod, Nov 2, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  8. Goorie

    Goorie Active Member

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    I'm all about a Nokken minelayer, Peacemakers, flashbots and core with KoJ ML and/or Karhu feur as aro tools in this sectorials.

    They feel right and powerfull both in reactive and in active.
     
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  9. OrphanOfToast

    OrphanOfToast Heated Bread

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    I actually think WinterFor has quite a few good ARO pieces. I think ARO loses a bit in N4 in general but a few quality options that come to mind:
    • Nisse - Throw a MSR nisse into a haris with a machinist and you have a pretty oppressive ARO piece. If you don't want to dedicate the points, taking one unlinked and standing it up after your primary ARO goes down in turn 2/3 can cause some trouble for your opponent.
    • Knight of Justice ML - High armor missile launcher you can shove in a link with a bunch of cheap fusiliers. It's a bit of an investment but if you're worried about alpha strikes, he can be hard to uproot if placed carefully. While not particularly a good backup, a really good option for your primary linked ARO.
    • Orc Feuerbach - A "cheap" HI explosive round when you don't have enough points for the more premium ARO options. Same deal as the KoJ, where he's a bit better as your primary ARO.
    • Boyg - If you throw a paramedic behind him he is a pretty good high armor ARO piece you can stand up once your primary linked sniper goes down. Again, a big investment but not an awful option. I used this guy pretty heavily in CodeOne but I assume he'll do pretty well in N4 too.
    • Jotum - Placed properly (especially if your opponent doesn't have much AP) the Jotum is extremely hard to wound especially with the new crit mechanic. An investment but I've made 14 order WinterFor lists with a core, haris, and jotum.
    • Nokken - While this relies heavily on board setup and if you're playing against a ton of camo, but a Nokken on suppression in the midboard covering a specific firelane can really control a board. In N3 I used to love alpha striking with my bulleteer then putting him on suppression on the opponents half of the board with pretty good result. You can do the same with a Nokken combi or (if you feel like dumping points into it) spitfire.
    To answer your question, I really like a linked Orc/KoJ/Karhu in a fusilier core as a primary ARO, followed by an unlinked Nisse if I'm really worried about facing a faction that relies heavily on smoke to get around or lacks a good HMG option.

    -----

    EDIT: Here's the list if you guys are interested. Both the Orc and Jotum can give people a bit of a hard time.

    Winterfor - Gunnar Rush - 300pt | 4SWC

    Group 1 - 10 Regular

    Fusilier | CORE | Combi Rifle | 10pt, 0SWC

    Fusilier (Lieutenant) | CORE | Combi Rifle | 10pt, 0SWC

    Fusilier (Paramedic) | CORE | Combi Rifle | 12pt, 0SWC

    Fusilier | CORE | Heavy Machine Gun | 18pt, 1SWC

    ORC | CORE | Feuerbach | 38pt, 1.5SWC

    VARG (Triangulated Fire, Sensor) | HARIS | Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, WildParrot | 28pt, 0SWC

    GUNNAR (Tac-Aware) | HARIS | Multi Rifle (+1 DAM), Chain-Colt, Trench-Hammer | 34pt, 0SWC

    QUINN | HARIS | Shock Marksman Rifle, Flash Pulse | 23pt, 0SWC

    FUGAZI DRONBOT | Flash Pulse | 7pt, 0SWC

    FUGAZI DRONBOT | Flash Pulse | 7pt, 0SWC


    Group 2 - 3 Regular | 1 Irregular

    JOTUM (Tac-Aware) | Multi-HMG, Heavy Flamethrower | 87p, 1.5SWC

    MACHNIST | Combi Rifle, D-Charges, GizmoKit | 15pt, 0SWC

    MULEBOT | Baggage, Deactivator, Repeater | 8pt, 0SWC

    WARCOR | Flash PUlse, Stun Pistol | 3pt, 0SWC
     
    #9 OrphanOfToast, Nov 2, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  10. Cadmo

    Cadmo Well-Known Member

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    I agree with @Teslarod regarding the role of Karhuu as an ARO piece. I think although it can be very strong, its much scary in active in a full 5 man core link, shooting at 19s in range with burst 4.

    This usually leaves me with a link consisting of 4 fusiliers (lieutenantn, 2 decoy and a paramedic) plus a Karhu feuerbach (for active) and an Orc feuerbach in reactive. I use in reactive an Orc over a KoJ, simply because I prefer to use the KoJ spitfire in a haris for active turn. Normally combined with specialists karhu and supported by pacemakers and bulleteers. The rest of the defensive setup may vary, but could include fugazzis, pacemakers, among others.

    Sometimes I think it can be redundant to have two Feuerbach, but it is the cheapest way I have thought to have a strong defensive/active link and have space for other units in the list.
     
  11. Ruaridh

    Ruaridh Member

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    Have they given any indication of when we can expect karhu models at all?

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
     
  12. miguelbarbo84

    miguelbarbo84 Well-Known Member

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    Just after knight of Montesa
     
  13. Nomadimp

    Nomadimp Well-Known Member

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    Wondering if the high prevalence of saturation zones in ITS 12 is going to turn people off of expensive linked ARO pieces or not. Halving down to B1 really hurts the KoJ ML and Orc FB while the humble TR bot is impacted less.

    On the other hand, the Nokk or Locust in suppression goes up quite a bit in value when he's in a saturation zone, that's tough to shift in a F2F.

    Unfortunately, my knee jerk reaction is that this decreases the value of F2F BS attacks in general (a strength) and increases the value of CC and DTWs in general (a weakness). Not to be all doom and gloom, it's not every mission and there's plenty else going on. Just wondering how people are thinking about adapting to this neat ITS curveball.
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    That honestly swings my vote even further towards the non linked choices.
    With Snipers being the natural predator of TR Bots, they only get better.
    TAG AROs are a lot scarier when their defenses are enhanced by lowered Burst.
    TO AROs have nothing to lose form Saturation but a lot to gain.

    Linked ARO pieces get hit hard unless they can partially make up for it through increased durability. KOJ ML and Orc still look somewhat solid.
    For Active turn it mostly increases the value of B4/5 HMGs relative to other weapons. A B3 Karhu is still plenty scary though. B2 Linked Orc FB or B1 KOJ ML not so much.

    Being all about BS competent Links Sval isn't happy in that kind of environment. Then again Nokken and Locust might benefit here. A Jotum in a Saturation Zone is tough to crack.
     
    #14 Teslarod, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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