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Wildcard limitation?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by konuhageruke, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Is there any limit of Wildcard troopers in any fireteam? Can I have multiple wildcards of the same unit in FT? Is this legal:
    gMwAAIEsAQEFAXwBAQACgJYBAQADgJYBAQAEhN4BAQAFhN4BAQA=
    Zanshi core
    2 Shang Ji
    2 Haidao.
     
  2. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    So long as the Fireteam includes at least one model that counts as the type of model required for the fireteam, you're fine. Note, your specific faction's Sectorial allowances will details if a Wildcard option is only 0-1. Haidao *used* to be up to 1 for IA Fireteams in N3, but this was removed.

    Whereas, if you look at White Banner, any fireteam can include a Tian Gou but each Fireteam is limited to a maximum of 1.
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'll just partially high-jack this thread for a related question;

    Did the "fireteam identity" so to speak survive to N4 as well? Can a wildcard replace the owning trooper?
    E.g.
    1. in WB, Jing Qo can "form a Duo" with a Shaolin; can the wildcard Shang-Ji replace Jing Qo in this Duo or does it become a Shang-Ji Duo because Shang-Ji has the Duo skill like in N3?
    2. in WB, Jujak can "be part of any Fireteam of Shang-Ji"; can the wildcard Tian Gou replace Shang-Ji in this Fireteam constellation?
     
  4. Kumatake81

    Kumatake81 Well-Known Member

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    Afaik You need at least one of the troopers in the fireteam, after which the fireteam is named.
    A wildcard cannot replace the 'last' of these troops, exept they 'count as'...
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That is the result of quite some confusion and a fairly large FAQ entry in N3, and I can't currently find any rules which would indicate that this restriction still exists. The only thing I can find in the N4 documentation is that a Fireteam has to have at least one "original member" and in Dahshat a Rui Shi is definitely an original member of a Zuyong Special Fireteam even after you replace all Zuyong with Wildcards.
    (However, a Fireteam of Sforza + 4 Authorized Bounty Hunters isn't allowed because all Ghulam/Zuyong/etc have been replaced leaving none still in the Core Fireteam and ABH aren't allowed to form a Core of their own power)
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Page 5 of the annex pdf has a red "important" box that says "When creating a Fireteam that includes Wildcard Troopers, the player must
    include at least one Trooper from the Units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a Trooper that counts as a member of one of those Units."

    I don't know enough about mixed fireteams to know for sure whether that answers your question. But it looks like it might?
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's the one I was quoting myself, and I think that's not enough to make Fireteam creation work like in N3.
     
  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I guess the ambiguity is if it says “Unit A: special fireteam core: up to 4 A and one B”.

    That means either one of two things:
    1. It’s an A fireteam, so there has to be at least one troop from A
    2. A and B are both defining members, so one B plus 4 wildcards would be sufficient
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that and also when unit C is Wildcard with Duo joins a Duo if that Duo becomes a C Duo or if when C replaces B it's still a B Duo.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That depends on whether both B and C have Duo on their profile. I think in N4 they need to, so in the case where it's a Duo of B+C and both B and C have Duo then it's either a B or C Duo - depending on whether Bs can join a C Duo or whether only Cs can join a B Duo.

    Consider Krizas (B) and Hollowmen (C). You can absolutely form a Duo consisting of 1 Kriza and 1 Hollowman. However this MUST be a Hollowman Duo as Krizas are allowed to join Hollowmen Fireteams (B may join a C Fireteam) but Hollowmen are not permitted to join a Kriza Duo (Cs only form C Fireteams).

    But this also demonstrates that this is practically irrelevant: it is only necessary to know that B + C can form a Duo, it is not strictly necessary to know that it is a B Duo or a C Duo. It only matters whether it is a B or C Fireteam when you need to add a 3rd, 4th or 5th trooper.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    As to your specific example of a Zuyong + Rui Shi fireteam in Dahshat:

    • Dahshat sectorial chart
      • Zyugon: Core, Haris
      • Rui Shi: Special
    • Dahshat special fireteams chart
      • Yaoxie Rui Shi - special fireteam - up to 1 Rui Shi can join a Zuyong Invincibles Fireteam
    It says it's a Zuyong fireteam, so at least one Zuyong needs to remain after the Rui Shi and wildcards have been added.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Is that how it works? I only see a restriction on Wildcards.

    Mainly I'm looking at fireteams of 5 Legates that have FD +8". I think it might be legal but not sure.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And here's the crux of it. We need to let everything we learned in N3 go, the FAQs do not matter and the rules do not inform what is in the N4 rules at all, the N3 content might as well be Age of Sigmar. Okay?

    So, where in the N4 rules does it say that a Kriza forming a Duo is a Kriza Duo?
    Where in the rules does it say that a Fireteam where Wildcards that can replace any unit of a Fireteam can cause the Fireteam to no longer be a Zuyong Fireteam?

    In Age of Sigmar there is an FAQ telling us this was the case, but that FAQ applies to Age of Sigmar which isn't the game we're playing or discussing. So, there might be a rule I'm missing and I'd be happy to have the page number pointed out so I can read it and find it again later, but discontinued rules are discontinued rules.
    Plus all the faulty assumptions people keep making for not reading the new rules and realizing they are subtly different, when in fact CB has changed those rules.
     
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  14. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Who can form the duo?
    Criteria to be satisfied:
    1. Must have the skill
    2. Must be allowed by the sectorial chart

    The "Kriza" descriptor you're adding is only important if you try to add a wildcard.

    In the Rules Annex where it spells out in the red box:
    "IMPORTANT When creating a Fireteam that includes Wildcard Troopers, the player must include at least one Trooper from the Units listed for that Fireteam in the Sectorial chart, or a Trooper that counts as a member of one of those Units."

    Also note "units listed", so if a fireteam lists multiple units in its creation all must be present, so wildcards cannot replace them.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And, when reading that rule, how can you infer that a Rui Shi does not count as an original member of the Special Fireteam Core where a Rui Shi may join? The Rui Shi is literally listed as a member of that Fireteam and isn't a Wildcard!
     
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  16. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is your question/problem with the rules as written?
    You're told "up to 1 Rui Shi can join a Zuyong Invincibles Fireteam"
    So you form a Zuyong fireteam, either core or haris and include a Rui Shi. So a minimum of 2 troopers are accounted for, 1 Zuyong and the Rui Shi, all/any of the others are free to be either Zuyong or wildcards.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't see where you are getting this information. One (not two) units from the original need to still be present, how do you arrive at that this has to be specifically a Zuyong?
    Using only N4 rules, remember.
     
  18. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Why are you using "still"?
    Literally the common requirements of fireteams tells you that you have defined your fireteam at creation across bullet points two and three:
    • A Fireteam can only be composed of those Troopers listed as being able to compose Fireteams.
    • A Fireteam must be composed of Troopers belonging to the same Unit, or of those that the Sectorial Army List specifies are able to do so. Some special Fireteams can ignore this Requirement, as specified in their description or in the Sectorial Army List.
    With the special fireteam you have to include every trooper specified as necessary by the sectorial army list. In the case of the Rui Shi in a Zuyong fireteam, that is at least one Zuyong and one Rui Shi. You cannot replace either of those two with wildcards because of the red box that tells you that you must include at least one trooper from the units listed for that fireteam.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No no. This hasn't ever been true when it comes to Wildcards replacing units. If you have a "Special Fireteam: Bob, Annie and Phil may form a Fireteam Haris" then you can still use a Tian Gou Wildcard to replace Phil provided Bob or Annie has the Haris skill. This hasn't changed across the editions (yet)

    The red box tells us that one unit (my emphasis) from the original Fireteam needs to be in the fireteam when replacing units with Wildcards.
     
  20. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid that's you reading N3 rules and prescedent into N4. If it's a special fireteam haris specifying it's composition as being Bob, Annie and Phil (from 3 different units) than you can't use a wildcard to replace any of them in that special fireteam haris.

    Read it again, it specifically says "units" plural. So if multiple units are specified for the special fireteam, at least one trooper from each is necessary.
     
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