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Why do we have 5 very samey heavy infantry?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Jul 31, 2022.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Shang Ji
    Fine as is.
    -------------------------------
    Zuyong
    Fine as is. The template from which others come from.
    -------------------------------
    Jujak
    I think my problem child is the Jujak. They don't seem to be following their background in the stats. They are are from Huang Di and should have skills to go with it. Ones that don't even cost much or even anything!
    • First off they come from an artic/mountain world so they need Terrain (Total) or at least (Artic/Mountain).
    • As mentioned many times, Immunity (Continuous Damage)
    • They are mostly going up against PanO so they need a Hacker and/or an FO due to fighting TAGs and other HI. A hacker would make them different from Zuyong.
    • Also in line with gong against PanO and similar to So Ra, give some access to E/M weapons. Mines, Blitzen, CCW, Wild Parrot, Zapper.
    I think these few things would make them different enough from Zuyong.
    -------------------------------
    Crane
    I actually think the Crane is already pretty different. While his move sucks it does make him different. He's the best CC HI we have with much different equipment.

    If I were to change anything on them it would be somewhat minor and be more thematic to them being the Law.
    • Give some the option of a Para CCW to take enemy alive.
    • An option with a Pulsar (+1B) would be cool.
    • Change Multi-Rifle to Breaker Rifles. It's more thematic to ISS and cheaper?
    -------------------------------
    Wu Ming
    Wu Ming are tricky. They are also in Ikari so it would change them too. I do think they are pretty different right now. Fairly different weapons choices, no cube. 4-4 move. The ARM of Shang Ji and the BTS of Zuyong.
    • The only thing I think that would be good is adding Frenzy. I think it's more thematic for what they are and even thematic for Ikari. If not for ISS then Ikari only would be cool too.
     
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  2. TenNoBushi

    TenNoBushi Well-Known Member

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    Without questionning your interesting proposals, I just wanted to point out that Jujak are not from Huang Di but from the Koguryo province on Shentang.
     
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  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I was looking for their background and couldn't find anything but a quote. So I thought they were from Huang Di. Ok then maybe not the terrain? Everything else would still be good.
     
    #123 Space Ranger, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't refer to Zuyong as fine. They're too close to Shang Ji to the point where anything that isn't the TacAw Tinbot basically gets overlooked.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes I think they are sufficiently different. SJ have a lot more than Zuyong. Better ARM BTS, BS Shock, Dodge 2", better weapons and more expensive, the tac aware are also on more guys and better weapons including a secialist. What could make them more different from each other?
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The part where the Shang Ji is just a better version of them, so you don't make Zuyong fireteams you make Shang Ji fireteams and wildcard in the support the Shang Ji needs.

    The only place where you actually consider a Zuyong is the TacAw tinbot is a haris option, because that's the only time you might consider taking a Zuyong is when you want them to be cheap. But with all the other link options for the core there's no reason to build Zuyongs into those because they are neither cheap enough or offer particularly useful support, or are capable of ousting the Shang Ji from the pointman role.

    You know very well it's been this way since N3 with these two units pushing each other out of the meta because they try to fill the same areas. Before the Zuyong was on top now it's the Shang Ji.
     
  7. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    Maybe give zuyongs tactical awarness on the paramedic, and Standard weapons instead of the heavy weapons. So one could build a 5 man link with 10 orders. That would be sweet.
    Wu Ming just need, mov 6-2 and frenzy, to bring down their cost and they are fine. or grenades and happy mittlerweile warcrimes.
    The crane needs mov 6-2, something with a litten more ooomph that a simple spitfire and maybe an AP or breaker spitfire as well as Veteran or loose some Points as he is simple to expensive compared to similar Or give him special CC Bonusses as mono with dmg 14 or smoke or even eclipse.
    Jujak... a whole lot of deployable, and bs attack continous on the ML and spitfire and vullanshotguns instead of boarding shotguns. Some nco or TA profiles and they will do work.
     
  8. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I obviously disagree but I'm interested to know more how you conclude Zuyong are fine as is? They seem to struggle for list space except when they bring unique skill or equipment, which seems bizarre for something which should be the basic line troop of a sectorial. Exacerbated by Heavy Infantry profiles in the 25-40 point range being extremely crowded.

    Its only too evident how little zuyong see playtime and many IA lists feature zhanshi (*I haven't seen many since the fireteam changes), and I can see why some might not be bothered by this but it absolutely blows me away than a sectorial called the "invincible army" often features only a handful of invincibles.

    I think Jujaks are a mess. But the problem arises is when you try to give them any cool kit on top of the 'elite HI' statline you can only end up in the elite HI pricerange. Which is another yu jing staple which isn't exactly strapped for options. Given ShangJi are available in whitebanner as well, you quickly start competing with those profiles for list space.

    Realistically, Jujak should have been the toolkit unit that yemao were, but I think CB were constrained by the HI == Elite statline shackle, so had to create a new 1W MI to put the cool tools on and Jujak became yet another bogstandard HI unit.

    I think Crane with 6-2 move, a slight price drop (maybe Para is cheaper) would be playable for me. I wouldn't be opposed to a more holistic rework, but they're almost there to be honest as great midfield allrounders.
    Maybe some interesting LT options like the Hsien would do it.

    Wu ming getting frenzy under the current ruleset would be a straight buff and not really reasonable I think. Hence why I thought they should have short range weapons.
    Without any changes this would probably hurt the ISS design space, but I can't imagine any of my changes coming through without a rework to ISS anyway.
     
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  9. LucaGirolami

    LucaGirolami Active Member

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    Zuyongs are okey-ish, but they have lot of dead profiles. I'd have them streamlined:
    - Combi Rifle
    - Boarding Shotgun
    - Combi + TinBot
    - Combi Rifle Paramedic
    - HMG
    - ML + LSG
    And an additional profile of each of them with Tactical Awareness.

    Jujaks actually only partially play on their fluff. Just add Terrain (Mountain) or Terrain (Total) and Immunity (Continuous) and we are fine.
    Fluff-wise, YJ high command tend to be suspicious about Lieutenants coming from ethnic minorities, so converting Lieutenant profile to NCO might do the trick.

    Wu Mings might needed a restyle. I would have them stripped from elite weapons (MULTIRifle, HRL, grenade launcher) in favor of simple Combis, Panzerfaust, Chain Rifles and grenades. NO specialist profile, and either Frenzy (leaving them ARM 4 BTS 3) or Impetuous (making them ARM 3 BTS 3). Price should go down accordingly.

    Other HI are fine to me, except the poor Crane, in dire need of a proper restyle.
     
  10. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Something like this. Just nothing more than HI-Linetroops. This would draw a thick line between Zuyong and Shang. But then the fireteam tag needs to stay. And we need to clean up their profiles:

    As I would not like to see models get invalid or not WYSWIG anymore, I would get rid of all HMG versions except HMG/TA. I would - given the lower basic price - promote the Multi Rifle to the tinbot option leave Para/FO for the Combi.

    I am not a fan of 4-4 for HI. All S2 HI should move 6-2 (only exception: Ariadna) to avoid confusion.

    PS: Zhanshi are PH 10 :smirk: but I would keep the 12 for Zuyongs.


    As a marine/naval unit the Haidao should have BTS 3. A HI without it feels just wrong or ariadna.

    I like the CCQ attitude here, but I would not get rid of the HMG and HRL mainly to keep the miniatures in line.
    I also would add frenzy. As former criminals they are maybe eager to proof their worth in battle.

    Jujaks: All want Imm (Count.Dam) give it to them CB! Apart from I think they are okay with the HI with flamethrowers role. Vulkan for the engineer maybe add another specialist, like a FO.

    yeah

    Crane: at the moment: Give them 6-2 they are a real CC HI, not just poster-boys. I truly not understand why they are 4-4.


    Ähm - what?
     
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes I think Zuyong are ok. It's everything else that hurts them. It's no their fault the make Shang Ji really good and allowed them to be wildcards. When I look at one troops I try to see how they work with the whole.

    Or Chain of Command but NCO is good too.
     
  12. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to write: "Happy little warcrimes." weapons that are generally forbidden or looked down upon. jammer, grenades, smoke, chest mines, heavy shotgun. Wu ming should convey the brutality of a penal legion.

    Autocorrect on my new Phone is notoriously bad extremely so when I write in english. Always mixes up with german...

    On another note i wholeheartedly agree with your points and want to add something to the wishlist for jujaks, grenades with continuous damage too lean more heavily into the whole fire theme.
     
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  13. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Bioimmunity doesn't apply vs. Comms attacks (e.g. hacking, pheroware) so it's not relevant to that. If you want your Yan Huo harder to hack, link a tinbot.

    Yan Huo are:
    • ARM 5 instead of BTS 2 vs. E/M ammunition and breaker weapons
    • ARM 5 instead of BTS 3 vs. flash pulse, viral weapons, nanopulsers, pulzars, sepsitors, symbiobugs, and the second save from plasma weapons
    • BTS 3 instead of ARM 0 vs. monofilament and k1 weapons
    The Yan Huo MHMG profile is weird as a solo take because the HRMC exists, but in a haris it comes into its own—b5 MHMG in active and b2 EXP in ARO. You lose out on the template threat of the ML profile but gain active turn gunfighting advantage via weight of dice. If I'm going to move a Yan Huo haris up the board the MHMG is probably the correct profile to take, since you can stick him somewhere in suppressive fire if needed.

    I'd argue that Qiang Gao's main role in IA right now is as the best aggressive LT option if you're also bringing an NCO. In a uniform four-man link with a tinbot he's a bs14 dam16 b5 gunfighter with Sixth Sense who's immune to Oblivion and resistant to other hacking. His main gun is the same caliber HMG that a Tikbalang is packing, and he's got a dam14 nanopulser on hand as well. The list kind of needs to be built around him because of his cost and role, but that's somewhat true for many aggressive LT options in the game.

    Other IA aggressive LT options:
    • Daoying sniper I guess?
    • Mowang - lower WIP, more hackable, only 1 LT order, slower, can't join haris or core, mid- to short-range main weapons mean pushing up which makes the hacking vulnerability worse. Makes a better NCO.
    • Shang Ji - more hackable, only 1 LT order, lower WIP, 36 pts for a MULTI Rifle with nothing else special, or almost as much cost as Gao for a tinbot HMG...who is hard to take when Shang Jisus is right there.
    • Yan Huo - lower WIP, more hackable, only 1 LT order, slower, LT options can't be linked at all, kind of a big target for similar cost. If no NCO, the HRMC LT is one of the better choices in this list.
    • Zuyong - worse in all regards than the other options if combi, the regenerating LT HMG is sort of a fun meme pick but not great.
    • Guijia - only 1 LT order, over 30 pts more expensive, more hackable, but if no NCO in the list and you have CoC she's probably the best pick for an aggressive LT.
    I'm not saying an aggressive LT in IA is the best or most competitive list choice...the Daoying shotgun and hacker profiles are near auto-includes for good reason...but if you really want to run one, Gao is at or near the top of the list.
     
  14. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    RE: the actual original topic, IMO...
    • Haidao - Would benefit from bioimmunity and I'd sort of like the specialists (hacker, engineer, CoC) to be FTO (Invincible) options in IA
    • Zuyong - Tbh they could come down to 1.9 wounds, rather than up-armoring Zhanshi into a new HI line troop, if the goal is to make Yu Jing HI line troopers more cost-effective. Mainly, the profiles would benefit from some overdue pruning and tweaking to make more of them relevant. The MULTI rifle model is great and merging the FO profile onto it or giving it TacAware would be an incentive to take him, for instance. Give the BSG profile a panzerfaust, issue someone a spitfire or grenades, I dunno. Mix it up a lil bit.
    • Hulang - Give frenzy. If there's anything in Yu Jing that deserves it, it's them.
    • Wu Ming - Impetuous would probably do it. Generally agree that more warcrime-y loadouts would be a fun pivot, but keeping the HMG as a support weapon seems maybe necessary, especially for Ikari Co.
    • Shang Ji - NO TOUCH. *lovingly caresses multiple copies of the boxed set*
    • Yan Huo - ...courage, please. Come on now, CB.
    • Jujak - Immunity (Continuous Damage) would be nice, but honestly I don't get all the Jujak disdain.

    No, really. All the Jujak profiles have a potential use and I don't understand why they're such problem children. None of them is an autoinclude, but that's probably a good thing.
    • Combi HFT - LT shell game option, effectiveness varies by list
    • Combi HFT LT - actually an ok LT choice for durability reasons, especially tinbotted or in WhiteCo
    • Breaker Combi HFT - this is the least relevant because you can get the same thing with a tinbot for 2 pts, but maybe you need those 2 pts elsewhere?
    • BSG Faust Tinbot - another close-in defensive piece, good in a link even in ARO if you haven't unloaded the panzerfausts yet
    • Breaker Combi HFT Tinbot - linkable tinbot, good defensive piece that kills bears (breaker) and everything else (HFT) once they get close
    • Engineer - ...what's not to like?
    • Spitfire HFT - good for pushing, credible threat to lots of things, especially if linked
    • ML LFT - look, sometimes you want a missile launcher instead of the HRL in a link, he's here for those moments
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    Just wanted to comment on this bit. The Zuyong HMG was actually in the running for best LT in Yu Jing before IA released with the Daoying for very good reason; it comes with an SWC discount on its gun and it's the cheapest one to be genuinely useful. If you want a hero unit to Rambo up the table it's underwhelming and the Automedkit won't do anything most games, but if your idea of an active LT is a guy who can pop up from behind cover and put the LT order to use clearing AROs off objectives he's one of the better-value options in the game for it since you can put more in the list with the points you save. Definitely a lot better in Vanilla than IA though, you'll be using your Fireteams for those jobs in a Sectorial.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    For specifically IA and vanilla Yu Jing, an LT option is only a valuable addition if it can give a valuable alternative to the Daoying. That is to say it needs to have a skill and equipment set that is sufficiently good and different to having an LT in camouflage that's providing 2 orders to one or two very good NCO.
    For White Banner it's a bit easier where I'd flag the Guilang and Daofei as being the best LT options, so an LT would have to provide enough argument to overcome the LT protection that Camouflage offers. Both options being expensive in either SWC or points means that there's more room for just "good" LTs in White Banner to be valuable options (the whole exercise of making a list is to avoid as many "bad" units as possible) but merely "good" might not be enough for White Banner, either.
    Similarly for ISS which has a bunch of fairly costly and obvious LT options, there's even more room for a merely "good" LT. In ISS the field is even more level and even a Celestial Guard LT is valid as a low cost option you might take for an actual reason other than "I've painted myself in a corner and a Zhanshi LT is the only thing I can afford" (ironically I think Sun Tze, at least v1, is probably the worst LT option available to ISS)

    Zuyong Automedikit LT is "good" in my opinion. Not great, though, and in my evaluation the PH is too low to be reliable enough to offer a realistic competition to the TacAware Zuyong HMG or the Shang-Jisus in terms of performance, so realistically it's not only a compromise for LT it's also a compromise for long range firepower and neither is a good compromise in either vanilla or IA.
    As such it loses out hard in vanilla and IA. As a profile I can see a bunch of sectorials where it could work and Dahshat is one of them while ISS as it is designed today would've been one of them. It's not a great option however you look at it, but in sectorials designed to have poor LT options it would have a design space.

    To make it valuable in the sectorial it is in I'd argue it'd need to have a significant PH and a bit of extra gear to make up for the fact that it's a mediocre gun with a mediocre stat line. Basically, take the profile idea and strap it on a Shanger. It'd still not be enough to offset the Daoying's absolute ace function, but it might have a place in WB. Basically, I think Zuyong LT's time in the sun has been permanently excised from IA and vanilla when the NCOs gitted gud and the Shangers got one or two decent load outs.

    As a foot note, with Bixie we'll see how WB changes. It's entirely possible that she can make Qiang be an acceptable compromise compared to Jisus.
    As a second foot note, I'd love to see Shangers in general be brought up to the absolute diversity beast that is the Jisus.
     
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think Jujaks could be alright if Zuyong were sufficiently different. But again personally I'd like both of them to lose some durability and stats (whcih are expensive) and gain interesting tools and skills (which are often cheap) to widen the gap with the plethora of moderate to premium HI already in yu jing.

    Now @Mahtamori mentions it, the only thing I'd change about shang Ji is making the rest of the shang ji profiles as interesting as shang jisus.
     
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  18. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Shang Ji as elite veterans would make sense with TA across all profiles. This would open up hacker and paramedic as viable choices for HI pain train.
     
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  19. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I say yes to all TA, but they are neither elite nor veterans. They are line troops. But I would like to see that change. I mean Jujaks are vet-troops...
     
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  20. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Tac Aware across the board on the Shang Ji would be nice. Being able to slap a TA Tinbot in a duo with the Blue Wolf would give me a reason to even consider the Blue Wolf as a decent option in WB (for what it's worth, I think the Blue Wolf is okay in vanilla, it just has nothing going for it in WB).
     
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