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Why do we have 5 very samey heavy infantry?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Jul 31, 2022.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    They're doing you a favour. Sombra are fucking brutal.
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Ok I won't mention that then :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    I'd kill for the Zhencha to have a Breaker rifle or Redfury.

    I think of the five they are supposed be steps up from each other. Zuyong-> Jujak-> Wu Ming-> Shang Ji-> Crane. However there's missteps. Jujak are Veteran soldiers but they have such poor selection of troops in comparison to Zuyong. No things like Tac Aware or NCO. They give the feeling of assault troops but can't get close enough to assault. No good CC in general. Same speed as most HI now.
     
  3. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think this is the only counterpoint. We do have exceptional HI, and you can add Yan Huo, Hsien, Crane and Zhencha to this list.

    The varieties of line troop HI exist to give slightly different fluff flavor to each sectorial. Some of them could use a tweak, but they also each have some quirky profiles: minelayer & e-mitter and LGL for Wu Ming, link composition and good movement for Zuyong, fire for Jujak (and yes, should have immunity continuous) and 0 BTS for the space navy haidao (wtf, shouldn't the visor close?).

    Mostly, we get some cool models for each of them. This is why we have celestials and zhanshi - just for flavor in ISS vs IA. Same with Zuyong vs Wu Ming. If you want to paint up a new sectorial with a new link and new models, and slap a cool theme and color scheme on it... that's why Wu Ming.
     
  4. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The Crane is 10 points too expensive to be considered 'exceptional' in any quality other than its overinflated cost.
     
    #24 Weathercock, Aug 1, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2022
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yan Huo barely sees play too, Shang Ji largely supercedes it everywhere.
     
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    From the vanilla perspective, I have experimented with both and of the two I strongly prefer the Yan Huo for the things I want that slot in the list done (enemy overwatch / TAG suppression, rampart sweeping and back-pocket ARO capacity in either an early game pinch or late game when the chance arises). The Shang Ji tries to cover more bases at the same cost and the compromises it makes to do so produce a performance differential that I don't like putting up with, even if it is a better model for moving into the midfield.
     
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  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree. They were, and maybe still are, the opposite to the Hospitaller. But KH have frenzy to make them artificially cheaper. The Crane is one of 2 of our HI CC who can't even get into CC. He's just too expensive, especially to take more than one. The hacker is good, maybe one of our best, but so expensive!

    As far as Yan Huo, I've tried him but he's hard to place sometimes and slow-ish. I think the Neuro ML is a trap. in ARO it's 2 shots vs. 3-5 from the enemy. Then in my own turn it's 1 vs 1-2. That just seems dumb to me. I'm sure it's great when he wins but probably because it doesn't happen much. If I take the regular one it's the usual 1 in ARO but in my active it's 2 vs. 1-2.

    WTH is with Bioimmune on him? What a waste. It does nothing! If he's going to be hacked, it's probably Oblivion and then that's AP. So he's back to BTS3! Just give him BTS 6 or even 9 like almost all of the others of his type!
     
    #27 Space Ranger, Aug 2, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I barely rated it pre-fireteam update, but post fireteam update I find it's squarely buried six feet under. The Shang Ji has a host of interesting Duo options available to it in Vanilla, the Yan Huo doesn't.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't intend this thread to be one that's airing grievances over unit balance. As far as this thread is concerned, as long as a unit has a distinguished niche then that's fine, regardless if you value that niche.

    To be frank, Pan-O did it better.

    The gameplay aspect of Jujaks and Wu Ming could be covered with varieties of Zuyong similar to how Orcs have Varuna and Swalarheima versions, as this would free up the sculpts and release slots for more interesting variations. This might not be appropriate, though, and I honestly don't think Yu Jing has any need for a cheap heavy core absolutely everywhere. It's necessary in IA, but the other two sectorials don't really need-need it and can use their heavy "allowance" in different ways - and both of them are proving that they are exciting and good without them!

    Of course, one could also look at the actual gameplay performance of the load-outs I'm referring to, but I'm trying to stay away from that angle. As a point of conversation, however, I find the Engineer aspect of Jujaks more compelling than the cheap-ish flamer. Yes, a combat engineer should have a flamethrower and that'd be real spiffy, but the Jujaks as a combined arms unit one step further than is common even among Yu Jing is the most compelling part of the unit to me and the basic combi+HFT does not really play a part in that.

    I do think there's room for a very basic and very simple heavy infantry that fill a similar role as Zhanshi, but maybe not everywhere, particularly not when there's Zhanshi or Celestial Guards already fill part of that stereotype in these sectorials. (Unrelated, but I do think Celestials are a bit needlessly basic)
     
  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I usually find can fit one or two duos in a 300pt list without sacrificing a Yan Huo, and even if I couldn't, I want my duos advancing under cover of heavy firepower but carrying flexible mid- and close-range weapons and specialist capability. Hauling HMG range bands into the midfield isn't always actively deleterious but it's also not essential to the good/interesting function of a duo.

    I don't hate Shang Ji, but they're paying for dodge bonuses, BS attack (shock), number 2 and terrain (total). That's a fat profile for what is ultimately BS13 ARM4 HI, duos or not.
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I find the Shang Ji also wants those sorts of things backing them up, and very fortunately there's a bunch of options that tick all those boxes of packing mid to close range weapons+specialist.



    KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / AP + DA CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol. (0 | 36)
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, E/Mitter(+1B), Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25)
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
    HÚLÁNG FTO MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
    HÚLÁNG FTO Submachine Gun(+1B), E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, E/Mitter ( ) / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 30)
    PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, E/Mitter, Madtraps / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 27)

    Personally I think all of these profiles offer interesting Duo partners for the Shang Ji, the Shang Ji helping fight their way forward into position to do what they need to midfield as specialists.

    Basically you wind up with something like this



    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3
    KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, E/Mitter ( ) / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 30)
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / CC Weapon, Pistol. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22)
    GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    HÙNDÙN (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5)
    BEASTHUNTERS (Surprise Attack [-3], Camouflage, Forward Deployment [+8"]) Heavy Flamethrower, Panzerfaust, AP Mines / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 15)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    You could substitute one of the Shang Ji for a Yan Huo, but now you lose the order efficiency that comes with a duo plus an extra order and hacking protection from the tinbot, I value all of those more than the HRMC profile.

    With all that said though I still think this type of list is a sub optimal build for a Vanilla Yu Jing list. If you want to play top tier you play Camo spam, anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot in an alpha strike focused metagame.
     
    #31 Triumph, Aug 2, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
  12. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I think the 0 range band at > 32" and burst 5 on the HRMC make the Yan Huo a solid profile run solo in vanilla. The neurocinetics profile is always scary to shoot at, though a little vulnerable to smoke and MSV tricks. In IA, a B3 ML in a link is still noteworthy for damage output. I'd wishlist all the FTO options to disappear and have it linkable with B6 or neurocinetics, but we've been down that rabbit hole a few times.

    The Crane are definitely sitting out more missions after the recent fireteam change, but sensor is always somewhat useful and hacking crane is probably still useable for mindwipe etc. It'd be nice for them to get a few tweaks, as they're gorgeous models and need to see the table.

    Duo-wise, Su Jian and Kokram FTO is pretty hard to beat. The HSG Su Jian has so much movement, that it can scoot in and out of repeater range, drop 3 heavy shotgun templates on multiple enemies then end up back near Kokram's feet for him to repair any damage results or immobilized states. I've had this used against me, and need to take it for a test run.

    Anyway, this is mostly off-topic. I think we'd lose fluff and cool models if we consolidated the line HI types, but it could be done without really losing anything for game play.
     
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  13. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Also Crane are alongside Ninjas on the rather thin bench of AC2 smashers for ISS. Maybe you can get a Zhanying hacker over there with D-Charges, but that's a squishy troop to get across a table intact.
     
  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    More d-charges is something that needs fixing in general.
     
  15. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't mind seeing Wu Ming reworked into a role and price point similar to a Teuton/Tanko/Domaru/Diablos equivalent. Drop the CC leaning, but instead focus on funky, low-cost warcrime toys. Jammers, E/Marats, mines, all that fun stuff with SMGs or LSGs as the primary kit.

    They're basically a war-crimes division dressed up as a penal unit anyway. Make them angry, disposable, and, most importantly, unforgivable. Because the State Empire sure as hell won't.

    Back in N3, making them so cheap would be problematic, but with N4's body cap and ISS' fireteam slots still being pretty competitive in spite of their increased haris allowance (and I mean this in the best way possible), I don't see it being near the problem it would have been back then.
     
    #35 Weathercock, Aug 3, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2022
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    If there's any faction that should have even the concept of "disposable Heavy Infantry", it's Yu Jing. I like this idea.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is talking about consolidating the HI by way of removal, least of all me - I'm talking about a need to diversify the units we have in order to create the show-dont-tell effect of Yu Jing being HI specialist faction. Agreed with your assessment about Yan Huo. Yan Huo has two very distinct profiles with unique function, but they've also got two that kinda doesn't work. Not from a fluff perspective but from a mechanics perspective. I suspect that the missile launcher profiles are artificially more expensive than they should be to have a similar price to the HRMC profile and Multi HMG kinda pay a pretty huge over-price on the Multi ammo compared to e.g. ordinary HMGs or other Multi weapons - but that's mechanics; trucking along really heavy guns on a uniquely small frame is and should be a pretty cool and unique concept.

    Just fitting them up with Impetuous would alter them an absolute tonne in both role and tone. While I am not ever going to advocate for yet another high-stats unit getting cheap while being slotted into a fireteam to avoid the drawback (CB, impetuous fireteams when!?), just dropping them upwards of 15 points (yes, that's about how much Frenzy/Impet discounts e.g. Asawira or Tanko) would on its own make them cheap enough to see the table for the same reasons we see Diggers on the table frequently.
     
  18. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Neuro ML is for ARO only. Don´t use it active - except when you can shoot a target that has no LoF to you or has only a single dice short range ARO. That what he should do. Be a scary ARO. If one hit comes through it can be devastating.

    In IA you can use the ML with B3 which is nice for a an ML. And hat the same time provide B2 ML ARO.
     
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Sure in IA it's a bit different. But even there they are more restricted in what can make up the haris.

    For the others, I don't think they are close to the same. Just the Jujak and Wu Ming could use some tweaks to make them a bit more different from the others. If any should get something like Frenzy, it should be Wu Ming. Also maybe a little better CC. I'm not saying Crane level but something that shows them as Assault troops. Also not a replacement for Domaru.
     
  20. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the Wu Ming need any close combat competency. At least, no more than would be needed to keep their cost in a reasonable spot if my suggestion were employed. There's nothing in their background that would suggest any special close quarters training. Moreover, assuming the Crane got a relevant rework, it's not like ISS would then be lacking for CC competency, either.

    Wu-Ming-Impetuous-Rework.jpg

    Here's a basic gist of what I would do. Forward deployment to help jack up the cost a bit while also giving ISS a little bit more forward defensive presence. On top of that, it's a unit that wants to engage in close quarters gunfights, so that helps them get there, even if only by a bit. Veteran to, again, jack up the cost a bit without adding CC ability (the goal of the design would be to make them really want to get into close quarters gunfights, but stay the hell out of actual melee). Immunity to isolation also allows them to operate up close without fear of constant isolation, although they would still possess some vulnerability to Carbonite and, again CC. It also fits with the lore, since they'd have to demonstrate some considerable combat value in their past lives to justify not simply being executed or turned into Kuang Shi for their actions.
    Equipment loadouts are slightly modified. Removed the HMG because this vision for them does not include them functioning as hyper-optimized gun platforms. More importantly, however, it lacked a weapon that violated the Concillium convention. Some equipment loadouts contain slightly redundant weaponry (see: Chain Rifle with E/Marat). This is intentionally done to push point costs back up a bit.
     
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