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Why do we have 5 very samey heavy infantry?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Jul 31, 2022.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who's played the game a lot will know that there are a few abilities that are good at increasing a unit's power level and there's a few that are bad. The exact mix are a bit difficult to pin point, but ARM is one of the bad one until the chance to cancel an attack becomes strong enough to offset the cost increase. ARM 4 is has not quite reached that point and when faced with AP ammo it acts the same way as ARM 3.
    So for this reason, Yu Jing has 5 very similar heavy infantry units; Haidao, Zuyong, Jujak, Wu Ming, Shang-Ji.

    This ensures that there are at least one very very basic heavy infantry in each of our three sectorials as a faction design point with Shang-Ji being in two of them and Invincible Army having three of them. We're still talking about what is essentially the most boring design you can make for heavy infantry, however, and if we look closer on what tends to enter into lists and discussions it's almost exclusively the load outs that aren't basic; the Tinbots, TacAwares, MSV2s and Jesuses.

    So why are the remainder of the load-outs so very basic?

    It's 2022 and the game has moved on a lot from what it was when Human Sphere first released with its first massive expansion of profiles. Since then the other factions have been almost universally determined that there's no real room for basic, simple, heavy infantry.
    Asawira got an increase in BS, BTS, CC, Martial Arts, AP, etc while remaining the same price thanks to Frenzy, Riot Grrls got MSV, BS Attack +1 DAM, and a lower price thanks to Frenzy, Mobile Brigada got an upgrade to Tinbots and high enough ARM to reach that territory where the value increases faster than the price, even Ariadna while keeping their old fake HI got a real and very spicy heavy infantry that's anything but basic.
    These are all pretty crazy upgrades and not really all that necessary, but they did it because it made the units more exciting (and also shut people up who argued that they weren't worth using when there were good medium infantry that did the same without being hacked to oblivion).

    I'd also like to note that it's not all about sticking the easily avoidable Frenzy on a unit to make it drop in price enough to be worth taking, but it does beg the question of whether the prices are still all that fair for troopers that don't have Frenzy or Impetuous - or if the discount for those abilities on these kinds of troopers are actually far higher than the penalties that you avoid.

    Back to Yu Jing.

    If the idea is that Yu Jing as a faction is meant to have a basic heavy infantry unit in each sectorial because that is their faction identity, then I guess we check that tick box. Oh god, a tick box. Representation without purpose.
    The funny part is that the only unit of these 5 that actually manages to be the most basic heavy infantry you can be is the Haidao - and they're the only one of the 5 who are special forces.

    So what's the point?

    Well, I think that if Yu Jing are meant to be communicated as being the heavy infantry faction, you do not communicate this by trying to make the faction have the larges amount of basic heavy infantry as possible (that is a different kind of identity that essentially died when they made 15 model limit the default), nor the faction with the most basic version of a heavy infantry unit that other factions have a version of.
    Rather, I would argue that you communicate this through a combination of three qualities; having access to the most units with this quality, having the most varied units or having consistently some of the strongest units (not taking points into account). CB does this well with Nomads and their hacking having both highly varied hackers and also free-of-charge upgrades to their hacking abilities. CB also does this well with Haqq and their Doctors having all of them have free-of-charge upgrades that no one else gets and having almost all units have access to at least one Doctor profile. CB does this well with Combined and their... tech... where everything is just generally identifiably better (though not necessarily free of charge this time, thankfully)
    Quantity, Variety, and Quality.

    Yu Jing has got quantity nailed, but it's got issues with variety, and quality tends to be exception.
    Maybe those exceptional load-outs that people tend to discuss and design lists around should be more the norm for those units than the exception?

    In either case, thanks for sticking with it to the end of this rambling post that's not at all about tournament placements or performance.
    If you feel like another faction's stepping on your identity, I'm saying "yes, but maybe it's about the design back home creating the insecurity than about that faction getting a neat new toy".
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Because Yu Jing is the Asian faction so it stands to theme that they're all the same
     
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  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I largely agree. Those redundant baseline HI feel like such wasted space a lot of the time.
    In vanilla, almost all of these are pretty much dead on arrival. Unfortunately for the sectorials, it really doesn't get much better.

    Super obvious stuff out of the way, Shang Ji does work. The AP HMG messiah carries two factions on those beautiful servo-enhanced shoulders. Honourable mention to the HRL/LSG profile as a versatile close-range gunfighter. After that, any profile without tactical awareness except for the paramedic and maybe the hacker is filler.

    Zuyongs sort of get a pass as cheaper TA order farmers in IA. They can be link glue for when you don't want to splurge on a Shang Ji.

    Jujaks are where we start running into some real painful redundancy issues. The engineer is nice, I suppose. Nothing else feels worth dropping down from a Shang Ji equivalent for.

    And then Wu Ming. They don't really have any value even in their own sectorial unless you're taking a full, coherent core. A Hsien in a Xian team is a more worthwhile investment in any other situation, and usually moreso than the core, too. You could remove them from the game overnight and no one would notice. Sure do look good, though.

    Haidao suffered a lot from the fireteam changes.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Jujaks definitely need something to make them unique/stand out. Also, they should have Immunity (Continuous), no question.
     
  5. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    I think this is actually an issue for "cheap" heavy infantry in multiple factions, it's just more apparent in Yu Jing since they have multiple versions of this type.

    In the original human sphere release, these units had a diverse set of inexpensive profiles, plus a couple of higher value profiles to allow you to build a heavy core that could do everything it needed to do. Now that we live in the world of mixed fireteams, the equation is now balanced in favor of cutting out the basic profiles in favor of cheaper filler troops.

    In the case of Yu Jing, there are at least a few profiles (such as Shang Jesus or tac aware tinbot Zuyong) who keep the unit viable. In my own Haqqislam, our cheap heavy is supposed to be Jannisary, but they lack any tac aware profiles and the tinbot is a meagre -3 on a trooper carrying either a boarding shotgun or ap rifle, neither of which provides a strong pointman option in a fireteam. As such, even in sectorials the Jannisary usually stays on the shelf.

    I think all factions would benefit from a culling of basic heavy infantry profiles and a consolidation of tac aware, tinbots, heavy weapons, and specialist skills so that all profiles have at least 2 of the 4. Zuyong don't need 6 combi rifle profiles, they should merge the tinbot and tac aware profiles with one or two of the specialists, plus the Lt option.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't actually remember them having these high value profiles. If anything the load outs were a lot flatter with mostly only the primary gun changing. The more varied profiles came towards the end of N3 when mixed fireteams had already been a thing for years.

    While Janissary did receive a small bump upwards in certain areas, that's more how the HI were at the start of N3. The HI's own stats were meant to carry them and only really the factions with a more high tech focus in that area (Yu Jing and PanO) had access to spicy HI that did more than just carry heavy plates and a decent targeting computer.

    I don't think there are many basic heavy infantry left outside of Yu Jing, to be honest. Well, Ariadna does have their HI that act like MI that can kinda make the MI field quite crowded I guess. There's room for basics, just not several per faction.

    Without going into specifics, I do think they need to separate what makes Zuyong good and what makes Shang-Ji good on a more fundamental level than cutting down on load-outs. Currently, both are good because of BS 13 TacAware HMGs and/or Tinbots.
     
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a bit lack imagination. Jujak feel like they made them because they felt that had to. It's like they are trying to make the background fit. Yu Jing is about all these HI so better make another. But make them virtually the same as Zuyong. The idea of quantity over quality would make sense if they were cheaper.

    When was the last time anyone took a Zuyong, Jujak, Wu Ming, or even Shang Ji in vanilla?
     
  8. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Shang Jisus is a legitimatly viable choice in vanilla. AP HMG is still good without a fireteam, and he's highly mobile with built in defensive kit and order efficiency.
     
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  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Lol I should have said "other than Shang Jisus":stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    If I take a HI it's Hac Tao, Mowang, Daofei, Liu Xing, Sujian, Krit Kokram.
     
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I agree it's weird and dumb that you guys get 5 nearly identical basic HI. Especially where one of them is basically defined by being Korean, because I guess the Yu Jing army assigns flamethrowers based on country of origin?

    To me, what makes Yu Jing the HI faction is the variety of other types of HI. Daofei, Hac Tao, Hsien, Liu Xing, Yan Huo, Zencha (Su Jian doesn't count because it's not really an HI). Maybe none of those is unique, hell even Haqq is getting an HI parachutist, but it's still a wider variety of types of HI than any other faction gets. (Actually, Daofei and Zencha are probably unique.)

    Anyway, look on the bright side, it just means lots of different Yu Jing HI models you can choose from to proxy for the much smaller number of HI you're actually using.
     
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The Daofei is but the Zhencha isn't. The Sombra is almost exactly the same but MI instead. For reasons.
     
  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The Sombra is leagues above the Zhencha. They have a lot of similarities, but the Sombra is so much better in almost every single relevant capacity. To call them almost exactly the same would be a discredit to how much wildly better the Sombra is in comparison.

    Granted, the Zhencha is still good in its own right. It just looks like trash next to stuff like that.
     
    #12 Weathercock, Aug 1, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2022
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Among other things, they should just make the Zhencha 2w with no increase in cost. (And lose NWI ofc)
     
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  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what making the Zhencha two true wounds would accomplish. He'll usually be too far ahead to be effectively healed, and it just ends up leaving a body for your opponent to accomplish classifieds on.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. The whole topic is pretty much "other than Shang-Jisus".
    If I go a bit more into specifics I'd love to see Shang-Ji in general get Tinbot and TacAware on all profiles. Plus, I think the regular HMG profile is... perhaps not entirely pointless, but it's encroaching a bit on other unit.

    You can dumb down a bunch of the units down to a basic HI. Daofei is a Wu Ming with infiltration and camo, Liu Xing is a Zuyong with Combat Jump, Cranes are Wu Ming with CC ability, etc. Buuuut... those are all transformative skills that make the unit work drastically different. Basic stats are expensive, but they don't alter how you play the unit without large shifts.

    Oh, it wouldn't alter the points all that much anyway. 2 points maybe now that Courage isn't tied to NWI. I would prefer the Zhencha to be 2W because I value corpse-blocking higher than making a classified easier for opponent to score on the off-chance they have one of them.

    It is a bit amazing how Sombras are able to fit o many quality weapons, but that's Nomad MI for you I guess.
     
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  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Ok he is. however he's in a sectoral where no one takes him. He competes with Bandits and Morans. Which in a way is almost more sad.

    There's not many things that can be done to it when unconscious and it's situational. Sure someone happens to get a card to use but that's about it. But I do agree that they are usually in a place that's impossible to heal them up anyway.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Uhhh... wut? It's a 2W unhackable C+ Camo Specialist that FD and can fight if it needs to. It definitely sees play and does not compete with either model you just listed they fill very different roles. If anything Bandits see less play now that 1W attack skirmishers are less valuable because of DTW over proliferation.
     
  18. LucaGirolami

    LucaGirolami Active Member

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    We have redundancy, that's clear, what males me slightly upset is that "the HI theme" is better developed in other faction, or, as a separate note, our prerogatives are not strictly "our".
    Some example:
    - we are completely out of cheap Impetuous HI, like Tanko and Teutonics. I'm not saying that MO is a better IA than IA, but...
    - Tinbot -6 are sporadically available for Brigada and Grrls. Not specifically unfair, but this breaks a prerogative.
    - back to Nomads, both Brigada and Hollow Men sports a TinBot in Hacker profiles, while we need a link to achieve that.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The culprit behind a lack of HI in IA isn't the lack of HI options, it's the fact that IA can fireteam their HI with Zhanshi. Kinda no point taking a full link of HI when you can just play the wildcard game backed up by LI fodder. You could make the Zuyong copy past Teutons and you still wouldn't see them much because it's better to Shang Ji+Haidao+Character+Zhanshi+Son Bae or a similar mix.

    Eh.... both of these examples Nomads have just as much or more prerogative over those they're hacking related options and that's really their wheelhouse not ours.
     
  20. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen it my area then. And those that I know that play corregidor say they would rather take what I mentioned.
     
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