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Who should I bring with Szalamandra?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by MAlgol, Nov 24, 2017.

  1. MAlgol

    MAlgol I couldn't tackle the bear

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    Since I have spent so much point in Szalamandra I should use her as much as possible and most other troops should be support. What do I need and how do I use them?

    An Engineer seems obvious, perhaps Kowalsky and Moriarty since they can Airdrop right next to her if needed but I also like Zoe and Pi-Well and there I also get a hacker.
    My Intruder sniper will probably join in since he was ben absent in a lot of my list lately.
    Add two Zero's with Minelayer or perhaps Killer hacking but since Szalamandra doesn't have a Repeater they might not be so useful as they would otherwise?

    Two or so Jaguars with smoke?

    What to do?

    cheers,
    MAlgol
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The great part about the Szalamander profile is: huge PB, killer hacking pilot (granted, that won't be useful unless she dismounts, and could be a liability in most situations). So the strength here would be something like "I don't need to bring hackers to the table" (which is the opposite to the Iguana).

    Now, if you want to build a list around a TAG, I would suggest doing only a "core", so you can adapt it to several missions. Since you play on generic (only way to bring a Szally atm), I'd suggest 2 Zeros (cheap infiltrated order, prefered profiles: FO, minelayer, KHD), an engineer with D-Charges able to reach Szally (while Kowalski is a good option, you might be forced to deploy the miniature as a regular Tomcat engineer, which is fine; try to give her a zondbot/moriarty always, just in case you want to do a "free" Sabotage while the servitor goes to repair the TAG).

    Zoe and Pi Well are interesting for different reasons, and I think would be more useful with an Iguana and one or two Interventors, and at least one Zero KHD. However, they can work if you know how to make them to, and Zoe can have a Zondbot of her own, but she doesn't really have full sinergy with a Szally (you either work as engineer or a hacker, with the Iguana she uses both hats at once).

    The Intruder I would treat as a periferal to the "core", and if possible I would place 1 Intruder + 2 Morlocks (remeber: 2 Jaguars are 20 points. 3 Morlocks are 18!). If you want to place Jaguars anyway, unless you need to play "hidden Lt" I'd bring them over Alguaciles. Remeber, you can always make move + smoke with the impetuous order, then move back (and more smoke, if needed) with the irregular one. Or keep advancing, it all depends on the Metachem result (that's why I prefer 2-3 Morlocks, one can be "kept on a tight leash" to escort the Intruder and smoke him, while the rest go on a rampage).

    As for other options, unless you are going for a Limited Insertion list, I suggest to avoid TO's (specially if you go with the AD engineer), since you are going to be short on orders (for what is a Nomads list anyway). "Roadbumps" are a good option: one or two Moran will force your enemy to waste orders on clearing a path, and the repeater is only a liabillity if you bring one or two hackers; also, 2-4 koalas + 4 camo markers is quite dangerous as board control for the middle of the table.
    If you bring koalas, you might want to reload them. A Baggaje remote (8 points) is a cheap order, and a boost in points in several scenarios (and a double edged sword in others, like Annihilation, so be careful), and if you need 1 hacker only, the EVO is a good option thanks to its very good defensive suite of programs (also you will have an engineer, so you will be able to repair it: remember, they would need to score 3 wounds on the EVO to take it out, and its hacking device would go offline while the remote is Unconscious).
     
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  3. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    You always take Jaguars as cheap orders unless you have an idea in mind like hiding Lt. or you want what a Transductor brings.
    I do find myself without Jaguars in 10 order lists because I can't spare a CG slot.

    If you can deal with the Irregular order I would like Bandit to CC guys off of the TAG as well as normal specialist/attacker roles. Infiltration and Camo makes it faster to reach so you can clear it and keep the momentum.

    For a similar reason I like the Tomcat engineer so I can drop nearby and recover instead of moving an Engineer up, but again you have the order that is wasted when not used because of AD.

    Both would be good but both put an order strain on your list so probably not at the same time.
     
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  4. MAlgol

    MAlgol I couldn't tackle the bear

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    I have a box of jaguars so I prefer them. I forgot that AD will give you one less order until she is on the table.

    @xagroth "two Interventors" do i really need that? One Lt. with HD+ and a Killer?

    Is a EVO hacker more useful then an Interventor?
    Im sort of set on Kowalsky, 2xJaguars, Zero (ML) and Intruder sniper. I think the Minelayers will make the opponent careful at first till he finds out what it what with the 5 camo markers. The jaguars will move up and cover Szalamandra with smoke and Kowalsky will jump down and repair. Do I need to spend an order to have Controlled Jump active when Kowalsky jumps or is it always on?

    Here is part of a list.
    [​IMG] Nomads
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] SZALAMANDRA Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 90)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] SZALAMANDRA PILOT Contender / Pistol, Knife. ()
    [​IMG] CARLOTA KOWALSKY Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Adhesive Launcher, D-Charges + Moriarty / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] MORIARTY Electric Pulse. (4)
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] ZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] ZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] INTRUDER (X-Visor) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 43)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker (Killer Device Plus UPGRADE: Lightning) Boarding Shotgun, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)

    5.5 SWC | 294 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Ok, first of all: on Limited Insertion (and you have to reveal if you have a second combat group) your enemy will notice you have mines on the table. That will make him cautious (since he won't know which on is which), unless he has troops with N2-3 Visor who will declare Discover from behind smoke, and shoot other models they can see ^^

    Second, about hacking:

    EVO: The EVO can defend itself better than most hackers, due to specific programs. It also has excellent sinergy on a Nomads list full of remotes with Repeater, no matter if you go first or second. If (IF) you need but one hacker, this one is the most survivable option, but be carefull since the EC has an even better one (armed and with an extra program, plus Size 3 instead of 4).

    Interventors: usually you will field 2, both hacker plus with Combi rifle, since they can be Lt AND have Cybermask (the KHD has cybermask, but cannot be a Lt); this is because the enemy has to discover your hacker before attacking it, which is an extra layer of defense against both AD troops, Impersonators, and enemy hackers. Also, you want White Noise for your remotes if the enemy has MSV, and you can give supportware as well (just remember, cybermask is also supportware, so its either assisted fire or cybermask).

    So why roll with 2+ hackers? Essentially, ARO + repeaters. When an enemy hacker goes into range of one of your repeaters (usually, thanks to a Zero, a Tsyklon, or a Pitcher) if you have 3 hackers you can blast him from three directions at once, forcing him to either Reset or use a B3 program: that means Basilisk (IMM1) or Trinity (shock dmg); that means either AHD or KHD/De Fersen are the only models able to counterattack against 3 enemy hackers AROing at once. Also, KHD and H+ have Cybermask, so unless the hacker has Camo you can try to roll and go into marker status, which allows you to choose if you want ARO or not: if the enemy puts a KHD inside a repeater of yours, you can do nothing and he won't be able to freeze your remotes.
     
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  6. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    EVO always has Controlled Jump on, but regular HD or HD+ needs to spend an order. However, Tomcats and Carlota only have AD2 so they can't make use of it anyways.

    And Moran have Mimetism not Camo, so it will be deployed as a model not a token.

    If you use an Interventor Lt. and a Moran consider using Cybermask. This makes him untargetable through the repeater. Having another hacker is very useful to prevent enemy Killer hackers from getting your Lt. through the repeater, but it could be a Zero or something it doesn't need to be an Interventor. If the Interventor isn't the Lt. it isn't as important, but still nice to bait them in to attempting it.

    Having a lone Interventor Lt. and Moran is a bit risky against some players but doable. You'll know if you're against a team that would likely have a KHD. Remember that they need to clear the Koalas before they can make use of the Moran's repeater.

    It has support programs to help it but otherwise it just has Brain Blast to defend with.

    EVO is popular with TAGs because Fairy Dust doesn't affect TAGs while Kaleidoscope does.
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The moran's use, aside from grabbing and running with objectives, or to plant the koalas, is simply to lie out of sight (like in a roof), provinding coverage. He cannot be damaged unless by speculative fire there, and enemy hackers can, of course, "disable" his Repeater (and Isolate him, etc...), something that will cost them either to split ther Burst (and it wouldn't be a KHD, so it would be 1 Vs 1 bursts... or worse if you brought more hackers!) or fire a Pitcher.

    The EVO... well, yeah, it has Controlled Jump always active, so to speak, but the "lone hacker" idea here is, simply, Breakwater (-6 to enemy WP roll! Yeah, it's Burst 1, but we are looking at it as an ARO defense program). Truth is, I use more my hackers to ARO enemy AD troops 3+ than to buff mine, there is always a sweet side (and of we are talking about Yuan Yuan... well, even failing the drop they are useful :p).

    The interventor Lt, the trick is having two and a lot of repeaters (thus why I suggest it's better with an Iguana). You won't be using the Lt order on the first turn, but on the second, once the enemy has used his AD troop (it is rare to carry more, unless we are talking about Haqquislam, or to hold onto them until your third turn, unless you want them only to provide control points, grab something, control HVT or do something desperate: on your third turn you either don't need them, or don't have enough orders to feed to them). So, second turn your Lt order can be cybermask (if needed), and on the third, going for it.
    Of course, I'm assuming scenarios unlike Hunting Party, or others where the enemy gets extra points for hunting Lts, specialists, or the Lt is always identified.
     
  8. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I was referring to the "5 Camo markers" comment but I realise now that was including Intruder not the Moran.

    Since Breakwater can't hit back it can only delay your death. You are hoping they will run out of orders since you cannot escape otherwise. Losing out on programs that hit enemy HI/REM/TAG kind of sucks as well
     
  9. MAlgol

    MAlgol I couldn't tackle the bear

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    Hmm.. if Carlota only have AD:2 then perhaps there is little point in having her and instead replace her with Zoe and Pi-well and one or two Zondbots?
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    But you are making the enemy waste orders, and it is very unlikely the EVO will eat three wounds in a single attack. And once it loses one or two, it goes Unconscious, which disables the Hacking Device and the EVO is thus safe from enemy hacking until your turn.

    Zoe + Pi Well are 2 models, remember that (Limited Instertion makes that very relevant). The AD2 is quite good, considering most of the time is the AD level a player uses, and Carlota gives you D-Charges and a flamethrower you can deploy in the middle of the table easily.
     
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  11. WiseKensai

    WiseKensai Rogue Interventor
    Warcor

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    Here's my take:
    [​IMG] Nomads
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker (Killer Device Plus UPGRADE: Lightning) Boarding Shotgun, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] SZALAMANDRA Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 90)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] SZALAMANDRA PILOT Contender / Pistol, Knife. ()
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    [​IMG] ZERO (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] ZERO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] WILDCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)​
    [​IMG]10 | 5.5 SWC | 300 Points | Open in Infinity Army

    Everything in here is a threat, and you have all three types of hackers lurking about, as well as an additional "bubble" of AHD coverage because you have an actual AHD midfield in addition to the two Moran's repeater bubbles. I like the Wildcat in here over other engineer options because of his DTW, which lets him cover a table edge against Van Zant very effectively, with your Jaguar covering the other.

    If you're willing to drop smoke, you can swap the Intruder to an MSR, the Wildcat to a Clockmaker, and the Jaguar to a Krakot. I almost want to try to find points to swap the Interventor KHD to a Bandit KHD, simply because Bandits offer more options and the Interventor KHD is better friends with Iggy anyway.

    As an aside, this list is a pretty good example of why vanilla Nomads is so awesome... The only things that aren't specialists in this list are the Intruder and the Jaguar. That's pretty sweet.

    You can always swap the Zero FO to a Zero Minelayer. I'm of the school of thought that camo mindgames aren't really all that effective against experienced players who know you and your playstyle. But even if they know there's a mine on the table they have to respect it out of all of your camo markers.

    In this list I'd almost recommend against the Zero FO->Minelayer swap though, since your Koala density midfield is already going to be pretty high and a single dodge could potentially clear out a Koala and a mine, which really isn't what you want.
     
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  12. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    That`s not actually right.

    KALEIDOSCOPE (SUPPORTWARE) ENTIRE ORDER
    GADGET-EVO
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS
    • Thanks to Kaleidoscope, any of the Hackers from the same Army List that suffer a Hacking Attack impose a WIP-3 MOD to their adversaries' Roll.

    So only hackers will be affected. TAGs are vulnerable anyway.
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    There is no way to improve a Tag's resistance to hacking, aside from the "sucide mission/one shot and then die" of the Iguana's Repeater (depending if it's Nomads Reactive or Active turn, respectively). You can, of course, bring a KHD along to make the enemy's life as miserable as possible in case they try to take your TAG (something all factions with tags can do, I think).

    Also, I found myself in a bad position yesterday against Nomads (15 orders for them with a Kriza 2 Moran, 2 Interventors, 10 for me with a Marut). It was a valuable lesson both for me and my opponent: mine, I forgot the Moran had Repetares (rookie mistake, really) and then tried to push forward with an alpha strike (I got the Kriza); his: too much pruning leads to Retreat... Even if it's with my Overlord'ed TAG: the Moran in the center was totally hard to reach unless you had an infiltrator there (I had, the mk2 died without effect...), so it was "move + fire, oh crap Overlord'ed, move the Danavas, fire a Pitcher, Exorcism WTF 50% chance and the enemy will reset, ok it worked, move + reset I shoud be out, fuck I'm not move + fire, the two Interventors manage to possess the TAG), then it was "The marut rampages killing the repeater, the Myrmidon, the Danavas, the two dakinis, the mk4, and then it takes the last wound and goes KO". Then it's my turn... And I have the mk1 engineer, the Specops (too far away to do anything) and two Netrods: retreat.

    So, How to avoir that? Besides avoiding the Moran, I should have fire a repeater there first, isolate the Moran through it (he can only do reset) then move with the Marut.

    Lesson of the day: even BTS9 is Overlord'able, and it turns Exorcism into a 10 or less damage program, not to mention the Vol12 reset.
     
  14. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Thank you I meant Reboot.


    @xagroth remember that if you are possesed on your turn you can cancel Possession on your opponent's following turn using a Command token. It is done after Order Generation so if it is possessed on their turn she won't generate an order for you on your following turn before you can cancel it.

    Also, a possessed TAG only has WIP 11, and Exorcism applies an additional -3 WIP for a total of 8. Additionally MOV is 4-4, CC is 13 and BS is 12 while possessed.

    Possession is way overpowered if you do not use CT cancellation or the reduced stats.
     
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    We checked the details on site, I might have remembered another stat now. Anyway, it was my 3rd/4th order on the first turn, so forfeiting the Marut so soon was... bad idea (not to mention she would have been with 8-9 orders to ruin my day in the following turn). Problem was, she was possesed with my last order, so... Anyway, I could have repaired her and all that (wasting another CT, and pulling her to 3 wounds even... assuming no failures in a WP15 roll) but I felt the match was decided, so I scored 2 points I was able to, valued if I could go for a 3-3 (hint: no, I needed 1 more order than I had in order to detonate D-charges), and finished the match.

    Essentially, my mind was not on the game, the next match the O-Yoroi waltzed right in front of my hacker Specops and I was oblivious to do the ARO and block her wrecking of my Marut.
     
  16. sarf

    sarf Well-Known Member

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    Reboot helps a lot indeed.
    I`ve never got any of my TAGs possessed. Usually it`s just blown to bits or rarely frozen by some assault hacker.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Assault hackers:
    It depends on what hackers you have in front of you, what faction are you facing, and if you are facing a single hacker or a repeater... And of course, the Avatar is inmunne to Posession.

    Essentially, when you have WP14 or 15 it is interesting to ARO with Total Control or Overlord (depends on your target's BTS), Specially depending on what do your enemy has on his list and where (no hacker nearby? How many orders to exorcise the TAG?), but if you are talking about WP 12-13 the +3 Carbonite offers to your roll is quite attractive.
    When facing Aleph the usual stuff is suffering one or two hacking ARO, while Nomads can give you 4-5 easily (even not counting the KHDs). Also, a spam list can really use an enemy TAG, while an order-starved one might prefer other options. Also, remember some TAGs are the Lt (usually the most expensive), which might lead to an enemy Retreat if you Rambo with the enemy TAG and kill one or two key pieces; since an IMM TAG still gives points, while a Posessed one does not... As I say, being able to count enemy troops' cost is quite usefull.

    As for the non-mechanical reason to use IMM instead of POS, people might find a bad idea to mess around another player's miniature, not know what to do with a TAG, or being so used to face HI that their default reaction to heavy metal in range of their hacker is IMM.
     
  18. WiseKensai

    WiseKensai Rogue Interventor
    Warcor

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    I think you mean Blackout? That tactic works, but is a pretty big investment in moving models around and basically requires you to have a pitcher or you're eating a Koala to the face. I've had E/M grenades spec-fired on a Moran before, and that sucks. It's about the same order expenditure, and I'm of the opinion that having something with E/M grenades in position is probably better, especially since a Nomad player is going to have a KHD or two lurking to take advantage of your pitcher.

    I dunno. Morans are quite annoying to deal with, so if you're getting someone in place to fire a pitcher over there, then spending orders to Blackout me against a reset I'm pretty happy already. If you sac something to a Koala to deployable repeater me, I'm even happier. I find the most effective way to deal with a Moran, as a frequent fielder of Morans, is to just shoot it from outside of 8" to avoid Koala-to-the-face syndrome, preferably outside of 16" to get me in bad rangebands with something like a Spitfire. I'll make it hard for you by positioning my Moran smartly, or just prone on a roof, but that's not always possible given table configuration. Bonus points for doing it with MSV1+ to negate my mimetism. Every time I play against @natetehaggresar 's Morans I just shoot them from afar or DTW them after clearing their Koalas with my Koalas from my Morans. He basically does the same to me.

    I think Oblivion is a pretty strong ARO as well. It's not double trouble like Carbonite, but it does more long-term damage to your opponent. If you're hacking in F2F, e.g. the unit is shooting at you and you need to hack it, then Carbonite is the better call, but if it's just walking by I'll often choose Oblivion.

    Your point about blindly declaring IMM instead of POS against TAGs is valid though. I've definitely declared Oblivion and wished I had tried to possess shortly thereafter.
     
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  19. tomjoad

    tomjoad Member

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    A command token can cancel POS, but only an Engineer can get rid of IMM? That could be a reason to prefer one over the other, I guess.
     
  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I had a Danavas H+, that means access to Pitcher, Oblivion and Blackout. Please do notice that Oblivion causes Isolated, which includes disabling comms like the reapeater. The Koalas were dealt with (my frigging Dakini Kamikaze managed to dodge one... and the other was a bonus shot from the Marut), so it was just a problem of the Repeater. And once removed, I had a mk2 Assault hacker in range for the Boarding Shotgun (or the nanopulser if I felt like it).
    Sure, it is better to shoot the Morans from aside, I have even caught more than one by AROing to their Koalas with my mk4 HRL. But the table... Let's say the table seriously lacks stairs, and has a 20cm tall building without any kind of access (and 2cm tall borders for cover, the moran was hugging the ground), so it's either climbing plus or GTFO, which is quite frustrating.

    No, there are 2 levels of IMM. The ones that can only get ridden of by an engineer are the IMM-2 (usually thanks to an Adhesive Launcher, where the target needs to pass a PHIS-6 roll... totally great against heavy IPs).