White Banner so far...

So I've just finished a visual league with WBA as well.

My thoughts were that it was an interesting way to really trial the new units but ultimately doesn't do anything that Vanilla can't do better.

Increased AVA of Guilang and Daofei are red herrings as the expensive unit roster means you'll be crippled taking max AVA.

Looking at Fireteams, the only other strength of sectorials:

• The Jujak fireteam, as already mentioned, is exorbitantly expensive without cheap link fillers and the odd Shang Ji tax. That said, it almost does HI core better than IA if you do commit.
• The Zhanshi core with a Shang Ji TA HRL is effective as an order generator and defensive tool. Throw in a TG KHD/Jammer for laughs if it suits your meta. None of the other wildcards, excluding Qiang Gao, work well in the core so even though you have several options, in reality it feels pretty generic.
• Ye Mao Haris is the saving grace of this sectorial. B5 AP Spitfire with mimetism, MSV1, FD and super jump causes havoc. Throw Lei Gong and a KHD Ye Mao and you've got a forward deployed, mobile(ish) Haris that packs a punch against nearly every unit in the game and can push buttons.
• Wildcards. TG aren't cheap but they're cheaper. They also provide a sneaky KHD or jammer that can be disguised as a juicy target. Even if they never jam or push a button, they often do more by scaring an opponent into wasting orders avoiding "Qiang Gao"'s linked HMG or overlooking a Tiger's worth of points.
• Duos. I want the Blue Wolf to work but it's pretty flimsy and has gone down to unlucky rolls when I've played so can't comment too much. Pairing it with a TG holo KHD has been entertaining though. Don't see the point in the Jing Qo/Liang Kai duo.

Jujak core without a Shang Ji would be a good first step to improve the sectorial. A wildcard engineer would have been fascinating and interesting to run with the Blue Wolf.
The Shaolin felt like a forced inclusion as they didn't synergise well with anything for me. Maybe a special fireteam Duo/Haris with Jing Qo that would have let them use their irregular order would have been interesting and novel.

I've enjoyed playing WBA for its toolbox feel, especially coming from IA, however, I ultimately felt it was held back by having too many units that filled the same high 30s slot. While there are some amazing new units for Yu Jing, I feel the sectorial fails to show them off in the way that it should (fireteams, support, etc).

 

It does bear remembering that SWF and WBA are both armies designed for N4 and the accompanying changes and updates, rather than bring native to N3. Any suggested changes right now would be premature, since we won’t have an idea on how they’re truly meant to work for a few more weeks/months.

 

I'm just not playing them until N4, there's no point evaluating them right now they're set to have such big changes in the next month. It's a completely different game to play when you start threatening your opponent with invisible AOE ARO attacks.

 

I feel like I’ve had a completely different experience. Now I am a boring person, and no matter the sectorial I tend to make a similar LI with friends fireteam, but I really think that works well with WB. WB has a lot of good solo pieces and a really good haris in Ye Mao. I find WB’s ability to withstand a first turn pretty amazing. With the ability to have a Linked HRL HI, camo with HRLs, mines, various camo units, and Shaolin monks guarding corners, not many people want to get close. I have loved the Guilang in every game I have played (5 of which), and have even taken 4 of them on certain missions.

I don’t really ever see the need to make a HI core in like any faction though (aside from HM in TJC), and I feel like WB has enough solo pieces to make multiple different lists while using the 4 Zhanshi + Lei/Qing/ShangJi core.

 

Considering that once released, it takes between 3 to 7 years for changes to be made, I'd say any suggestions after release, or even this close to release, are probably way too late.

 

Directly to profiles, yeah, they do patch the sectorials faster though with new additions.

Like Lei Gong is very clearly a "We fucked up and the Kamau was a mistake" patch for IA.

 

Yes, but if a unit's main identifiable meta-function, like the Shang-Ji, is to make the sectorial they are in worse by occupying a premium trooper role without being a premium trooper, that is not something you can address by making additions to other sectorials.

As is, the discernable role of the Shang-Ji (besides preventing White Banner and IA from making premium HI lists and thus encroaching on the territory of Tunguska or Military Order) and besides providing some minor min-max opportunities are; a HI-quality AHD, wildcard tinbot, and wildcard Tacaware template weapon that isn't as terrible in active as a missile launcher. These are all roles that are very easily replaced.
IA: promote Tai Sheng to wildcard, give Zuyong an AHD profile, change Krit's SWC weapon to HRL and AMK to TacAware.
WB: give Jujak the Shang-Ji fireteam options; Jujak are sufficiently Shang-Ji that no further change is needed to fill Shang-Ji's roles.

Barring the full removal of them they have to be reinvented and the C1 profile tells us this hasn't happened. They will continue to cost what premium troops costs while performing like line heavy infantry. Premium units work because they have abilities that allows them to exploit orthogonal situations and allows them to perform well in spite of their cost. As presented in CodeOne, Shang-Ji remain a very costly minor upgrade over Zuyong. Are they better than a Zuyong? Yes, but this isn't a cage wrestling match between two wrestlers because the Zuyong has their girlfriend in the audience waiting to slam a chair on the Shang-Ji's head and the Shang-Ji is only about 10% better at taking damage and 0% better at dealing it than a Zuyong/Jujak not 25% better at both like what the price indicates.

So in essence, I think it's too late already and the Shang-Ji will spend another decade bringing down what I think are two very interesting sectorials. Unless there is a true game changing ability hiding for Shang-Ji that isn't in CodeOne, such as Total Immunity.

 

My gut feeling is that the Shang Ji are probably going to remain very very lack luster. Their only saving grace is gonna come down to wild carding into units. Won't feel the greatest but will probably remain serviceable in WB.

I think people going into WB looking for a brutal core link to smash face with are going to be largely disappointed, and yeah the Jujak and Shang Ji may well wind up being largely to blame for that. On the other hand that kind of core link is the least interesting thing to me in the sectorial so it probably won't bother me much beyond lamenting continued developer design incompetence.

 

"I think people going into WB looking for a brutal core link to smash face with are going to be largely disappointed" Most likely yes, but the people who went in expecting that should probably have found that in Invincible Army and shouldn't expect two sectorials of the same faction to play that way, tbh. To me the Shang-Ji is invalidating the Jujak's role of "Janissary" or "Wu Ming" or even "Orc" and occupying a "slot" that could better be used for a unit that is better suited for what I was expecting from White Banner which would've been a warband, light infantry or above all else a skirmisher. In fact, what I'd have liked to see would be an elite version of the Guilang with MSV2 who could properly combo with monks, but without the long-range weapons that would contend with the rest of the sectorial so not an Intruder++

I've been having modest success with White Banner and I find it to be decently fun to play with, but the biggest obstacles to building lists that cater to the distinct White Banner aesthetic I've encountered so far is the lack of AVA T on Zhanshi and the general incomplete feeling of the sectorial that Liang Kai's Fireteam option and the lack of Super-Jump wildcard engenders (why oh why does Jing Qo have Climb+?).

 

The AP HMG the Code One variant of the Shang Ji has stands out. Could come in handy for anti-TAG or heavy HI duties at long range, since crit-fishing won't work as well anymore. The AHD also having a DTW is very useful for messing up Hackable-heavy lists, especially the likes of Dakini links. I do agree that the game mechanics work against them, since they invest in ARM, PH and CC without the skill synergies that actually make those expensive stats useful (exception being the AP HMG, if it keeps that Regeneration with its high PH and two wounds it could be a fine piece).

 

I can get behind the regenerating HI with a coked out armoury. But the other profiles need to reflect that design philosophy as well.

 

Don't get me wrong I still have absolutely no idea why the fuck Shang Ji are even in WB instead of some other skirmisher/ambush/winter themed unit.

 

The AP HMG isn't an ARO piece because it has too many points invested in stuff that doesn't matter for hunting light units, while against heavy units it both lacks the MODifier abilities to make it consistent and it lacks the credible one-lucky-shot-kill potential necessary for threatening a HI or TAG. As is, it'll be fighting at a disadvantage against most HI or TAGs and will be rolling at equal or lower BS, equal or worse MODs, and a heavy burst disadvantage - plus the lack of DA or EXP means it needs to win these bad odds two or three times instead of (potentially) once. The result is that as an ARO piece it's only marginally better than a Chaiyi for 6 times the cost.

It does have some potential as a good active turn piece with an insurance policy. Keeping in mind that this insurance policy comes at the cost of order efficiency, of course, which at least in N3 has been proven to be at least as much king as burst. I'd like to see the AMK on the Shang-Ji HRL more than any other loadout, tbh.

Btw, another weird profile in C1 is the Specialist Operative. N3 Shang-Ji doesn't have Forward Observer nor a Specialist Operative that would make sense to be this profile, plus it has two pistols where Zuyong has Pistol (+1 burst)...

 

@Mahtamori , remember that in C1 Regeneration runs at the States step instead of as an order, and I see no reason this wouldn't continue into N4, so it won't cost orders from the group (cost in points is another story). There's also a very real chance that the Fireteam bonuses or rules could be altered, which would be particularly big for the Shang Ji since it's a Wildcard in both Sectorials. N4 Crits are also a thing now, so pretty much everything can threaten a HI with oneshots; an N4 AP HMG crit hits like N3's Feuerbach and Suppressive Fire, if it remains unchanged, could turn such a big gun into a substantial threat.

The Regeneration Shang Ji would also make amazing bait for an NCA-style ARO trap alongside a HD Hundun. Stick the Shanger in a link or Suppressive Fire, let the opponent bring their own premium gunner into an open lane to take it down with fair odds, then drop a HRL template or sniper shot into their flank. Either the Shanger or the Hundun could be taken down alone quite easily, but they'd be formidable together and the opponent is stuck in a lose-lose situation since they either shoot the Hundun and potentially miss thanks to its MODs, shoot the Shanger and have it stand right back up at end of turn, or shoot both/Dodge and have a slim chance of saving the unit. Expensive tactic, but might be worth a shot in some lists, especially if the opponent relies on a Fireteam Core since HRLs are such bad news for them.

 

@SpectralOwl I'm well aware of how C1 AMK works, which is why I'm not disparaging it as a completely ridiculous waste of ink. I have a distinct feeling that the fireteam bonuses might change, but probably not for the stronger - or at least hopefully not further in favour of the ARO unit. An N4 AP HMG crit doesn't hit like a Feuerbach, a Feuerbach would be AROing with EXP ammo. Yes, the gun has a higher potential than in N3 of one-shotting a HI (at the cost of corresponding lower chance to wound), but that's still not all that high (roughly 1% per shot) whereas a Zuyong Missile Launcher or Shang-Ji HRL has a significantly higher chance of doing it (and not by a small amount, we're talking more than 8 times more likely for Zuyong vs an Orc)

So an Orc has the odds of about 60% of causing a wound, 6% of wiping the Shanger AP HMG out completely and at a risk of about 9% to take a wound and 1% to get downed [both in cover, neither in Fireteam, both at +3 range, both using corresponding HMG]. That's stupidly good odds for the Orc and will set the Yu Jing player back significantly - it's the kind of opportunity you want to see as the Pan-O player.

So bottom line is, yes you can do it but it should only be used as a last resort. Just because it's possible doesn't make it desirable or smart. This is the kind of ARO you put up late game when you've eliminated your opponent's potent guns or when you need to deny an objective for your opponent and you no longer need the Shang-Ji to live (AMK or no AMK). Ditto, just because this is not the worst unit to use for this purpose doesn't make it a good unit to do so - there are several much better choices such as Long Ya, Zhanshi Sniper, Guilang Sniper, Shang-Ji HRL, Zuyong ML, Jujak ML, Ye Mao ML, etc etc, which will give credible ARO power at a lower cost - both SWC and points.

 

We've already had confirmation from CB that they're not doing an HSN4. All rules and (in production) factions are being released at once.