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Which Borac?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by bakuninunbound, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. bakuninunbound

    bakuninunbound Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Hey guys, I am working on a competitive (semicompetitive) list in Vanilla. Right now I am trying to take full advantage of zero vis zones (smoke and white noise) with 2 ass kickers (Intruder/Borac), with the rest of the list mostly support and problem solving. The idea is that the Intruder deploys out of LoS with a good view of the board and uses smoke and other mods to take out things like TR bots and other ARO pieces or exposed enemies, then the Borac in his own pool Juggernauts forward taking out enemies in cover and then going into suppression. This list fairs relatively well with a good amount of redundancy, but I am having trouble deciding which Kriza profile is best. This is the list I have been playing so far.


    [​IMG] Nomads
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Akrylat-Kanone, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VERTIGO ZOND Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] KRIZA BORAC (360º Visor) Mk12, Submachine Gun / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 63)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    What I am considering is swapping to the HMG Kriza, replacing the Paramedic Alguacile with a Moderator and adding in 2 more Morlocks. Morlocks are great base guards against things like Fidays and Speculos, and generally good throw away pieces against link teams. Also, they give redundancy on smoke which I always like. The only downside to this trade is that I don't think the HMG will work as well in the Krizas roll as a midfield sweeper. The MK12 on him is basically a beefed up spitfire, which, in conjunction with the SMG, gives him a solid weapon out to 24 inches. I am worried that if he takes the HMG, he will often be shooting at guys int he 0-8 band and 8-16 band. Obviously the HMG profile is solid, but I already have an elite HMG carrier in the intruder. Basically, is swapping guns worth 2 more Morlock and a slightly downgraded order monkey? This is the alternative just for reference: (Thanks for any input!)

    [​IMG] Nomads
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Akrylat-Kanone, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VERTIGO ZOND Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] KRIZA BORAC HMG / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (2 | 54)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    [​IMG] MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  2. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    I'd say go ahead and take the Mk12. You have more than enough smoke to get him within 24".

    The Intruder HMG's dilemma is that he runs out of guys to kill, and having a Kriza HMG to compete with just aggravates that.
     
    ChoTimberwolf, Smiler and xagroth like this.
  3. SuperD

    SuperD Well-Known Member

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    That really sums up the Intruder's role perfectly...

    However, I would actually recommend going with the HMG Kriza. I've had good success using him in a partial ARO role instead or as a back-up for the active turn if the Intruder eats a crit. The price discount is very tempting. One you're in suppression fire, then the HMG is equal at short range to the MK12. He can be flanked without the 360 but isn't that why we have cheap morlocks to guard against?
     
  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, it sounds to me like you want a TM RF.

    You have 2 long-range door openers (Intruder and Vertigo... although, TBH I'm not certain what your plan for the Vertigo is) and while the Kriza is a better gun-fighter, it's much more vulnerable when pushed into the midfield (even the 360 visor one).

    It gives you very similar capabilities to the Mk12 Kriza but at the cost of the HMG.

    You can run something like this and still get 2 x Koalas in your DZ on deployment as well as the Moran's.

    [​IMG] Nomads
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] STEMPLER ZOND Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
    [​IMG] TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] VERTIGO ZOND Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] TASKMASTER Red Fury, Pulzar, CrazyKoalas + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 53)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    [​IMG] ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] MORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
    5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It comes simply to who goes first and redundancy.

    If the enemy goes first, and manages to place his own MSV2 + smoke unit so he can hunt your Kriza, you will love to have that range... And if the Intruder is covering him so what? If the Intruder AROs, he eats the bullets then the Kriza will.

    And I'm speaking from personal experience, I played a Limited Insertion list against a spammy nomad one, and it took 3-4 orders to kill the Kriza and some other mooks, losing 1 wound on my Mk4 HRL in exchange (the Marut ended being possessed due to a small miscalculation, and I lost 3-4 being under 75 points by my 2nd turn, but even so...). The first order was smoke with a Myrm for the Marut, the second the Marut moved and shoot against the Kriza HMG, who had to choose between firing back at -9 or dodge... and when he did dodge he went from facing the Marut to face the Mk4 HRL, losing his last wound.

    So, have a backup (if my MSV had been and Agema or even a Deva/Asura, the hacking would have been no problem whatsoever), and choose the Kriza you want according to whatever else you have in the list.
     
  6. bakuninunbound

    bakuninunbound Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    The vertigo is an ARO piece, throw enhanced reaction on in and put it in cover. Also, I want to like the Task Master, but a pow 13 weapon is kind of rough, and missing out on that mod also hurts. In my last game I had my Kriza take out 2 mobile brigatta, and I feel like the TM would have had more trouble doing so due to pow 13 and no AP. If I can get a game in this week though I will give it a go, I LOVE the Task Master model, and martial arts + Tinbot are pretty nice.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Re: Vertigo as an ARO piece. I find it too easy to remove, and with Enhanced Reaction you need to go first. I'd find a Reaction more useful: it's just as vulnerable as the Vertigo but less so if deployed cautiously (ie where the obvious places to fight it are 16-32") because it's harder to just Surprise + outburst it. It also gives you a 3rd B4 gun.

    Where I find it useful is as a 'swing' piece. I've been using it a lot with Zoe, Pi-well and a Zero FO. I'm not really going out of my way to Guided things, but if it's an option; meanwhile, you can have it set up as an ARO to cover vs things like VZ. Personally, I don't find Morans or Alg FOs good enough FO pieces to make use of their FO ability: I find Zero's to be about the limit as their Marker state can allow you position them were they can get FO off, particularly if you also get to benefit from Surprise.

    Re: the power on TM RFs. Sure, and I largely agree with you. It's the notable weakness of the RF profile: TMs are a bully that fight down extremely effective, Kriza's are a high-end attack-piece that attack up effectively. But let's say you're fighting Aleph or CA: the Shock is probably more useful than the +2 DAM. Without knowing your local meta that sort of trade off is 6/half-a-dozen. Vs HI I'm probably going to use my Intruder if I have the choice.

    Another option is to switch your Morlocks for EM Morlocks (or at least 2/3): this will give you a couple of pieces that you can use to trouble pesky HI while you support your TM. It'll mitigate losing some of the punch on your attacking HI.
     
    #7 inane.imp, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    EVO: spend a command token to start the game with a Supportware EVO program active, like Overclock. Fear the 2 flash pulse remotes supporting 2 Tsyklon Feuerbach.

    The only problem I see on Guided Missiles atm is the SWC cost, which I find OK on the Druze (since the Clipper can link with them, thus using Burst 2 in ARO with a +3, note this does not work for guided missile orders, but for the "non-smart" mode).
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Enhance Reaction isn't a GADGET-EVO Supportware programme, so you can't start with it active. Moreover there is no EVO in the list being discussed. Making it an Overclock list would require a redesign so large it could not be considered the same list anymore. So I have literally no idea what you were on about in the context of the conversation at hand?

    And the SWC cost is one of those things that can go either way: it's not really an issue in a list that already has 2 B4 guns for and isn't maxing out on Morans, Zero Minelayers and Hackers.
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I mean that if you want to ensure heavy ARO capabilities on Turn 1 without worrying about who goes first, the Nomad's easier way is 2 Tsyklon Feuerbach, 2 8 points Flash Pulse remotes and an EVO. Pricey (2.5 SWC, plus nearly 100 points) but exceedingly effective.

    Yes, it would require a redesign of the list, but 15 models with 12-13 regular orders can work quite well, and you lose some Active turn spammy punch... Having both is nearly impossible, the closest being Aleph moving dakinis to the middle of the table and coordinate a Sup. Fire, otherwise Active Vs Reactive is a balancing equation :S
     
  11. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    If you're going to include an intruder, I would go MK12 Kriza. Your long range role is filled, you want Kriza in the middle anyway, and it eliminates the whole "get shot in the back from the front" problem that S3 and higher tends to have.

    Also regarding the Vertigo, I agree with @inane.imp that it just doesn't get the job done, and if you're looking for ARO pieces you are much better served with a Reaktion. I'm not sold on the EVO combo for ARO potential but to each their own.
     
    #11 Tom McTrouble, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  12. Rubberpiggy

    Rubberpiggy Well-Known Member

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    Dont forget about the krizas heavy pistol which is burst 3 due to full auto. I find that it mitigates the range band issues of the hmg kriza rather well. Also I have run Kriza HMG/intruder HMG combos quite a bit and they actually complement each other very well, being suited for different targets.
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Mk12/SMG profile is very strong

    That said, it's very expensive too, and the HMG is crazy strong as well, let no-one forget it.
     
  14. WiseKensai

    WiseKensai Rogue Interventor
    Warcor

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    I've been crutching on the Kriza HMG, mainly because he's B3 as a coordinated order spearhead. This is quite relevant in the 10 order lists I've been playing lately. Just using the coordinated order to get some movement for other models and still have a B3 HMG can often save your bacon.
     
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