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Where to start with list building?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by ddobberstine, Nov 2, 2020.

  1. ddobberstine

    ddobberstine New Member

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    I want to try out JSA for an online league coming up soon but don't know where to start with JSA list building.
    The missions for the league will be; Supplies, Domination, Frostbyte, Firefight, and Unmasking. We are allowed two lists for the league. I was think about bring the O-Yoroi in one of the lists.
     
  2. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    Frostbite and Unmasking are among the most unfavorable missions for JSA because of the use of exclusion zone, I think. Exclusion zone limits the use of some of the best JSA units (all kind of Ninjas, Ryuken with SMG). Two out of five missions is bad for JSA.
    Firefight in contrast is easy especially if you want to use the O-Yoroi. There are many good thoughts about it in this thread:
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/o-yoroi-viable.37841
    Some of these lists may even work in frostbite (O-Yoroi has Exp CCW so it can crack the heaters easily).
    For objective grabbing (Domination, Supplies and Unmasking) some of the best JSA Units are the the Karakuri. They are hard to kill so they are very good in Domination. You could start with a Karakuri Haris Link team for this list. Yuriko Oda, Kuroshi Rider and Ryuken with SMG/KHD are viable additions. Ryuken HRL is always a good ARO piece. Fill up with order monkeys and other ARO units and here you go.
     
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  3. ddobberstine

    ddobberstine New Member

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    Thanks for the suggestions, I've never played frostbite and unmasking but they look hard. Luckily the maps have been shown off already so as soon as I get lists done I can start playing on them and get a feel for how to play for those hard missions better.
     
  4. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with Dragonclaw's read. I think that JSA are in a position to excel in missions like Frostbyte and in particular Unmasking. (Actually I think JSA is REALLY strong in unmasking).

    I'd suggest you take a look at this list: I ran something very similar to it in N3 and had great success. It relies heavily on visual modifiers and I'd consider it a fairly balanced "all comers" type list.

    Midfield Mods
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment [+8"]) Submachine Gun, Shock Mines, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26)
    RYŪKEN (Hacker, Forward Deployment [+8"], Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, Shock Mines, D-Charges ( ) / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0.5 | 29)
    YURIKO ODA FTO Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, D-Charges, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 9)
    KEISOTSU (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 17)
    SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 44)
    YOJIMBO Contender(+1B), Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, Crazykoala / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 18)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    NINJA (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI (Doctor) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  5. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    That's a solid list for Unmasking, indeed. But I bet it's even better in missions without exclusion zones. It's not only about the greater distance to cover. It's about the missing attack vectors the opponent doesn't have to consider.
    There two things that bother me, though. The CoC Kempei seems to be a little bit wasted with a passive LT like a Keisotsu. I would use a more aggressive LT or throw the Kempei out. (tbh I almost always use an aggressive LT. I like to lead by example with JSA)
    The other thing is, the list is very light on ARO or more general spoken lacks stopping power in the first turn. After your first turn you can litter the midfield with mines and put your Ryuken in suppressive fire, no problem. But if you go second there is not much you can do against the opponent fulfilling his objectives. Especially if you can't get closer than 8'' to the objectives. And because of the low WIP LT this will happen more often than not.

    I played Unmasking on a tournament with JSA last year against Haqq (maybe Ramah, I'm not sure anymore). And exactly the worst case happened. My opponent fulfilled all primary objectives in turn one. It was a 10-0 in the end. I know, it's just a sample size of one, but I think it is definitely an uphill battle for JSA.
     
  6. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    ultimately this is an N4 tweak on what worked VERY well for me in N3. I'm just providing it for consideration, any player is going to have to examine their meta and playstyle and make their own tweaks. That being said:

    1) every faction suffers the same exclusion zone related issues with getting specialists onto the objectives. So any criticism of a list based on that point is moot. Infiltration and Forward Deployment skills allow you to cross that line with Shinobu reliably, and to deploy your ryukens and their mines to cover your HVT's.

    2) the COC kempei is there to be a specialist, accomplish classifieds, bring number 2 to save on command tokens, bring a linked shotgun and to actively discourage attempts at putting you into loss of lieutenant.

    3) I completely disagree about the ARO power of this list but that may come down to playstyle. I don't, if possible, engage past the halfway point when defending first. If my opponent wants to try to kill my models he absolutely must spend at least a few orders to walk into my territory before he is able to draw line of fire if I've deployed correctly - but that's my preference. Hide those Ryuken9 behind their mines and out past 16" where possible so that your opponent either needs to waste orders pie slicing and dodging, or risk taking a wound from the mine while engaging the Ryuken. One of the Ryuken (I'd recommend the one without the KHD) can even be in suppression fire in n4 to further crank their resiliency.

    4) Additionally it's not just about Unmasking. The list does quite will with Supplies (where there is no exclusion zone) and Firefight. Admittedly the list can struggle with Frostbyte (but that mission is dead now anyways...). I'm not sure what Domination is?


    A complete 180 from that previous list where everything is wrapped in tissue paper, this is a silly limited insertion list that brings 13 non-impetuous orders to the first turn and 18 active wounds. I haven't decided whether I like the Oniwaban over a specialist ninja yet since this list is a creation of N4 and the whole pandemic thing has made gaming tough.

    all the wounds N4
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    DAIYŌKAI MULTI Marksman Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, AP + DA CC Weapon. (0 | 48)
    OYAMA Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 20)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 18)
    YURIKO ODA FTO Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, D-Charges, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    DOMARU (Lieutenant [+1 Order]) Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, Panzerfaust, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 45)
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    YÁOZĂO PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI (Doctor) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

    3 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Core including the Daiyokai, Oyama, Tankos and Kempei. Haris with the LT, the Karakuri and Yuriko. This brings B2 ARO's in spades, a bunch of heavy infantry and a ton of wounds. Unfortunately it has almost zero defense against hacking.
     
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  7. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    You could always switch the doc and flea for an Evo hacker. So you at least have fairy dust.
     
  8. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    This list is much more to my personal favor in N4. I really like the Samurai Core link. But don't get me wrong. I have no general problem with the squishy JSA list (except the Keisotsu LT which I would swap). I just would use it for different missions. On a tournament I would use the first list for Supplies and the second one for Unmasking, Domination etc.
     
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  9. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Just remember that there are no limited insertion defense against order removal anymore so there isn't any penalty to having a second combat group with one or to models in it.
     
  10. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    That's right, but I can never decide which models I should put in a small second group. Because there's not much to do with only 1-2 orders. Only aro pieces? Then their orders will be wasted (as long as they stay alive). Maybe a baggage Bot or HML Ryuken. They could use a single order for supportware / mine laying.
     
  11. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    back to the kempei from the "midfield mods" list:
    In3 without the trooper restriction he didn't exist. The doctor and palbot were downgraded to a paramedic and the Kempei was a couple of extra keisotsu bodies so I had the ability to play hide the LT with 3-4 "plain" keisotsu on the table split between two combat groups. So far I feel that the changes I've made are organic and build to a strong generalist list that suits my playstyle,

    possible candidates for a solo piece in group two:
    any of the Yaokong remotes / warcor / hidden ninja-sniper (since nobody will be asking how many combat groups you have...) / Ryuken HRL / etc / etc / etc.
     
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  12. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    That's a really mean trick. :scream: I like it!
     
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