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Where to start with ISS

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Scutarii, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    Hi,

    I played some N3 and maybe 2 games of N4 a while ago but been out of practice and not paying much attention.

    I am looking to get back into playing Infinity again and am deciding between Aleph's OSS and Yu Jing's Imperial Service.

    The big draw for ISS is the abundance of visors and sensors and such making it feel like the opposite of enemy camo spam and markers. I love the feel of just hard shutting down my enemies' tricks and bringing them to Imperial justice!

    But I don't really know where to begin. What's good? What's bad? Does the starter box contain units I'll use? Anything an absolute must have?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    Right now the consensus is that ISS is one of the weakest sectorials out there. If you are a good player and want to challenge yourself then playing ISS competitively would be a flex. If you want something that doesn't handicap you all the time then Aleph OSS is way better choice.
    Classic YJ Salt accusations in 3.. 2..1...
     
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  3. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    What is making ISS so subpar?

    I wouldn't be going to competitive events for a while (though would eventually) so am not too worried about that for the moment. Does taking the stuff that is competent mean heavy deviation away from the 'main draw' I noted in my OP?
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think it's important to stress that when a veteran says that a sectorial is weaker or "C-tier" or whatever, what they mean is that this is a direct comparison to the combined strengths and weaknesses of other factions and the variety of such that those factions can field.

    Variety is huge in Infinity and the primary driver to why "vanilla" factions are consistently A-tier or better.

    What makes ISS ranked lower than most sectorials is primarily that there's little variety in the lists they can field, not that those lists are weak. Add to this that this lack of variety is something that it takes experience to exploit. Given how complicated Infinity is, the systemic approach to unit design, and long term consistent support CB has for the game, these are still fairly small differences.
    And all that said, there's 38 factions last I counted and ISS definitely is not rock bottom, though each person will rate factions differently depending on their playstyle and their opponents' playstyles.

    As to why there's a lack of variety in the sectorial with the second (first?) largest number of units - nearly all of them start in the deployment zone, lack mimetism, lack marker state, and have a preference for short to medium ranged weapons.
     
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  5. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Starter Set, Hsien HMG (I think he is in this booster pack for Code One), Kuang Shi box, Su Jian, Xi out of the dire foes box, maybe ninjas and Kanren. Not to forget all three Remote boxes. Finish

    For start: Starter set, Hsien and either Kuangs or Su Jian

    Later you also want a couple of aleph troops. For doc/eng they only have the Sophotec for which Parvati is a fine proxy.
     
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  6. Lareon

    Lareon Well-Known well-knower

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    Long time ISS player and lover here.

    This sectorial is... not really up to date. By itself is really enjoyable and usable (you won't find yourself overrunned by other players), however I agree they're a bit subpar compared to the other armies.
    Truth is they fireteams are a bit lacking: you have few good choices and combinations, and many times you will find yourself looking at the same combos. ISS rely on very strong and nice single units... that means vanilla Yu-Jing has access to them as well, without the limitated roster of a sectorial.

    As for the balance itself, they're missing some tool and have some weaknesses: this was a general baseline of many old sectorial armies, but the most recent updates introduced in the game competent armies with a lot of versatility, something that adds another weight in this comparison.

    So, the main problems are basically two:
    • they don't rely too much on fireteams, something that puts them in direct comparison with Vanilla (losing on the variety of deployable troops)
    • they were designed with a sectorial concept that is quite old, and they don't have the versatility and tools they were given to the last (couple of years) sectorial armies updated.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Now. With that said, don't let that stop you. Most of it will be irrelevant for a new player, and as I wrote, the sectorial doesn't make weak lists even if they behave fairly samey.

    Where to start?

    The starter has a bunch of basic units and is a good place to start. This might sound like an oxymoron, but there's a few factions where the starter is not a good place to start. This is not one of them, so I recommend picking it up. https://store.corvusbelli.com/warga...perial-service-yu-jing-sectorial-starter-pack
    Primarily you've got your basic infantry in the Celestial Guard and your mandatory Rage Leader (we don't do Cheering in ISS) in the Crane.

    The REMs are always good to have, particularly in ISS where they fill a bigger role than in other sectorials. Consider more than one Yaokong if you like the faction and want to expand.
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/yaoxie-remotes-lu-duan-rui-shi
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/codeone/yaokong-remotes-pack

    ISS has support from Aleph and that's where some of the factions strength, but also inflexibility, comes from. Sophotect is the only doctor and the only engineer, she is good but she's very costly. Likewise the basic OSS trooper, the Dakini, makes a guest appearance and I can strongly recommend picking a pack of them up.
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/aleph-support-pack
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/dakini-tacbots
    Dakini comes with a Deva whom is required if you want to group them into a Haris Fireteam. Practical.

    I, personally, consider Adil a somewhat required part of ISS because of the very potent melee threat he posts. Similarly, Xi Zhuang is a very practical Wildcard to slot into any Fireteam to give them a some zone protection from MadTraps and to give them a competent sepcialist. Both come from Dire Foes packs, so you'll get a few non-Yu Jing miniatures and some HVT.
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/codeone/dire-foes-alpha-retaliation
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/dire-foes-mission-pack-6-defiant-truth

    With ITS season 13, the potency of bikes have increased to new stratospheres and I would strongly recommend picking up at least one if not three Bounty Hunters on bikes. (Two for ISS and an extra for the missions that allow them)
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/motorized-bounty-hunters-boarding-shotgun
    Like really. You can choose to ditch Impetuous and gain cover, plus they get mimetism for free!

    You are going to need a skirmisher and the Ninja is quite clearly the best skirmisher in the faction. You've got a bunch to choose from, just keep in mind that the regular Ninja can't have a sniper in ISS or Yu Jing, but can still proxy as a Kunai - though Kunai can be difficult to get value from.
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/search?term=ninja

    You're gonna need orders. Kuang Shi gives you orders. Yu Jing can't use more than 4, but ISS can use 8. With N4 rules, I can't recommend slavishly getting 8, so start with 4 and see how you like it.
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/kuang-shi
    They're conditioned prisoners that explode if they're close to the enemy when they get knocked down. Not for the squeemish.

    Last but most importantly everyone needs a cat or two. Specifically a cat that transforms from a fast murder machine into an accurate murder machine.
    https://store.corvusbelli.com/wargames/infinity/miniatures/su-jian
    Since they come with two miniatures, it's possible to use one box for two units with a bit of goodwill from your opponent.
     
  8. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    Thank you for your input everyone :)

    I'm going to do some research into OSS and then make a decision!
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    OSS and ISS are synergistic.

    If you get all the Aleph miniatures that ISS can use, you'll also have a really good OSS base. The Aleph stuff in ISS are even better in OSS, and as an added benefit, both OSS and ISS likes Bounty Hunters and Sforza! Well, at least I like Sforza.

    If you're feeling like you want to do a por que no los dos? and go both ISS and OSS, then keep in mind that you don't need to get both Yaokong and Rebots - pick the one you like the design of the most! I'm confident you will not find anyone who will begrudge you using e.g. Rebots as Yaokong - especially not in ISS.
     
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  10. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    Yeah I'd noticed there was some overlap, but didn't realise it was also in the mercenary type troops.

    That...uh...might increase the spending a bit :D
     
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  11. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    The Dakini box is really useful in both sectorials, they can even form a Haris in ISS now. If you are planning to go for ISS and OSS, that's a perfect fit.
     
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  12. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    I've gotten lucky! One of the local Infinity players remembered they had the IS starter buried at the back of a cupboard that they've given me. So I ordered the OSS action pack and will have plenty to occupy my painting table over winter ready for games in 2022 :)
     
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  13. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Welcome to the Judicial Service, @Scutarii ! The advice given in this thread is really good (8+-year ISS player here), and you've chosen some cool overlapping factions.

    Only thing I have to add: If you haven't seen Dredd yet (the Judge Dredd film with Karl Urban starring), it will give you some good feel for what the ISS operatives are probably like (but in a space-Asian cultural setting of course). Between that and the Ghost in the Shell But Higher-Tech feel of OSS, you've got some great narrative to back up your minis.
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's an outdated sectorial that doesn't fit well into the constraints of N4. A large portion of the sectorial's available troops are considered subpar.

    [​IMG]

    Green are solid units that benefit from being played in sectorial rather than just being used in Vanilla.

    Blue are good units, but you're better off playing Vanilla as they receive better support played out of sectorial. Su Jian don't have meaningful fireteams anyway, and Kanren and Ninjas both benefit from being played in an army with a stronger midfield skirmish presence, and a wider array of holomask targets.

    Red straight up bad units. Some like Sun Tze got nerfed hard this edition, others like the Bao have just always been fucking shit and CB has never done anything about it.

    Orange is where things get awkward. It's mostly a mix of units that were once pretty good that have either been left behind by power creep or got shafted by meta shifts in the edition change.

    Wu Ming and Cranes were once pretty good, great even. Exemplary units in their weight class. These days they're just shittier versions of other contemporaries both in Yu Jing and other factions. For example these days running a Wu Ming link is just a bad version of a Zuyong link, and Zuyong aren't even that popular in Invincibles.

    Hsien used to have a purpose which was running a Haris link with Nimbus grenades to bust SSS tier defensive ARO teams. Nimbus grenades got deleted from the game. It's also from an era where CB tried to keep MSV2 gunfighters limited in their Core link options which simply isn't the case anymore Dahshat blew the lid open on that allowing Rui Shi to a wildcard party core nonsense.

    Garuda weren't really used as drop troops by ISS, they were better off deployed normally and buffed with marksmanship and then used as super cost effective gun fighters. Garuda had the profile that ISS wanted the most, the HMG, deleted in N4, and arguably the Dakini Haris link added in N4 has superceded it anyway.

    Kuang Shi, ABH, and CSUs were all really good units in N3 when the meta had a strong fixation on super cheap order generation, and if you could mix semi competent combat stats onto the unit all the better. You'll notice that the sectorials where CSUs and ABH are still considered good they act as fireteam fillers for high value stuff, like Dakini links benefiting from adding CSUs in OSS. Kuang Shi fill for what is a decidedly dated and mediocre fireteam for Cranes, and their real N3 value of spamming orders doesn't fit the N4 meta of 15 unit caps. Kuang Shi aren't the worst unit, but they didn't age particularly well to N4 and a testament to this is most Yu Jing players on this forum would trade losing them as 5pt order batteries to gain them back as aux bot like peripheral units attached to other ISS units.

    For a comparison this is what a modernised sectorial looks like:

    [​IMG]

    There's alot more stuff that works.
     
    #14 Triumph, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  15. Scutarii

    Scutarii Active Member

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    Thanks for the breakdown!

    Shame that most of the good units in ISS are the out of faction stuff like CSUs, ABHs, OSS units, etc. Doubly sad that the things I consider iconic to the faxtion (the various agents) are questionably good because using the agents is kinda the point to me!

    But, as noted above, I have the starter box from a friend so I'll just have to see what I can do. Probably I'll run ISS in local friendly games and end up bringing OSS to something more competitive when I eventually get round to that next year :)
     
  16. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    I love my ISS, as they were the first faction I played in the game and I've played most of what they offer to death at some point.

    Pro:
    • They do have the benefit that the miniatures are gorgeous. Cranes and Hsiens are still some of the best looking HI in the game, in my opinion.
    • The Su Jian is still an outstanding unit and has been brought up to par in N4 with the heavy shotgun (+1 B), which can wreck most things if you get the right angle on them. Climbing plus is the best mobility skill, and playing ISS just because you want to play transforming cat bots is completely legit. The combination of multi-terrain and climbing plus is particularly useful in some missions this season, where your movement is effectively boosted to 9-4...
    • Kuang Shi will always be a pain in the ass for people to deal with and they bring an order battery and fairly resilient deployment zone. Dogged/exploding chain rifles are a grind to work through and can be reliable speed bumps for Alpha strikes and AD troops.
    • Hey, we suddenly got two MBH bikes to play with!
    • Garuda and Dakini and Deva have a pretty good second home in ISS.
    Con:
    • ISS still seems to be balanced as if MSV2 is the god of visors. Functionally, the sixth sense and MSV1 interaction mean that in a core link MSV1 is really close to doing what MSV2 does, and for cheaper.

      N3 smoke shooting and visor tricks with Rui Shi or Hsien made ISS a very reliable shooting army. N3 ISS felt like it solidly outshot Nomads, now they're decidedly second fiddle to a linked Vostok or Grenzer. The Hsien and Bao are restricted to Haris options and ISS has no linkable mimetism troops. You have to get pretty creative and either close the distance or make use of coordinated orders to remove some of those hard to shift ARO pieces, list building doesn't really revolve around powerful links.

    • Lack of AP HMG or similar - it can be tricky to crack hard targets at longer range bands. This has always been an ISS weak spot, but the N4 swing to higher armoured units has shifted the meta against ISS here.
     
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