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What is your Favorite PanO flavor in N4 now?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Cadmo, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. Cadmo

    Cadmo Well-Known Member

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    Dear fellows I hope you are well. We have been N4 for a few months now and although the conditions of the world aren't the best, I’m sure that many of us have played in one way or another.

    So I propose this post to discuss how we see PanO in this N4 edition, according to your own gaming experiences. Which sectorial did you like? or Are you playing Vanilla?

    Truth be told, I open the post because I have not been able to play enough and I can't decide which sectorial of PanO to use this year.

    So far I have tried Winter Force in a couple of games, to play the new PanO style, and it is not bad at all, but I came from VIRD and the truth is that brutality doesn’t convince me. I have used as a base of my lists a fusilier link plus a karhu Feuerbach (for active turn), sometimes with an Orc Feuerbach or a humble missile launcher fusilier like ARO piece. Additionally a haris normally with a Hospitaller/KoJ plus two Karhu (engineer and paramedic) and two pacemaker, the rest may vary depending on the mission. I would like to try Shona Carano or Liang Kai (the LE miniatures are great), but it is difficult for me use specialized CC profiles, I find them very specific and sometime inefficient no matter how brutal they are. Also I thought at some point use a Haris with a KoJ + a karhu paramedic and a Vargar K1 marksman rifle, but I had no chance to play. Finally, the lack of board control and midfield specialist leave SWF in an uncomfortable situation to acomplish several missions, you have to advance from behind facing everything directly and that is easy for the opponent to avoid, the lack of camo, TO or DA troop is hard and DDO infiltrated especialist aren't very reliable.

    I think the rest of the sectorials are good, Varuna is still strong in N4 (although the change in jammers still hurts), I really liked the change in Montesa Knight, Echo bravo and Patsy profiles. The change of ACO give us very interesting Regulars profiles, especially the minelayer sensor, the reduced cost of the TAGs is awsome and also the new evo profile of Scylla is very particular. The rest has not been very impressive and I think there is lack of anti-armor weapons. I still like the Nagas (1 or 2) with Dart plus pacemaker, but as always it depends on the mission.

    Neoterra is more enigmatic for me now, I played it many years ago, and 2020 was going to be my year with the NCA, but …...... Obviously I was surprised by the Bolts, the wildcard bulleteer and Aquila Guard, but I think it's the obvious and I haven't been able to go much deeper. Finally we must wait until March 8th to see what the military orders bring us.

    As you can see, I would like to know your opinions about PanO and its sectorials in N4 to see how will be the future of the Hyperpower.
     
    #1 Cadmo, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
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  2. Ruaridh

    Ruaridh Well-Known Member

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    I haven't played n4 yet and my n3 was just neoterra so everything is theory craft. But I have limited opponents mostly ariadna onyx and nomads. With neoterra I found I can out gun apart from onyx. If I lean into it and I don't have horrendous luck it was very point and click. Onyx I struggle with as the don't hit much less but have a bit more versatility. For looking at new nca I feel that gap will be closed. A pitcher and breaking my fire team was fairly regular. Also a last order action to swing happened often. With bolts change I feel that I can lean into the fire team more without it costing a lot more. They had the benefit of heavy hitters but with cheap orders too, I feel the order cap will limit them. Varuna still seem to have much more versatility but miss the heavy hitting aquilla or Swiss.i see potential for targeted from mid table hackers with smart missiles tho. MO I just seems to have even less flexibility but obviously updating soon. I want the crusade fire team to be usable but every time I try build it it just seems its for a kill mission and nothing else and bad dice will ruin your day.. Saa I have not experience at all with don't have the models so never even looked into. Swf seem like a cross between vird and nca but my experience is so limited that take all this with a pinch of salt :) interested to hear other ppls opinions. Also if I'm talking nonsense please tell me haha

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
     
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  3. Daireann

    Daireann Well-Known Member

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    I like Varuna more than other sectorials. Varuna and Acontecimento.
    By talking about flavor I am more concentrated on story and that things.
    So, my story not about gameplay at first. But this point is fair too.
    Ok, to the point.

    Indian motives, but with Acontecimento it is also some flavor of South America. Spices, markets, industry.
    Place full of life, honest work, industry and jungles.

    And Varuna. Indian influence also exists. but on this planet also lots of things reminds me about New Zeland. I was almost thinking to add some of their ornaments on some miniatures. Oceanic planet suits it well.
    Some platypus symbol were in plans either.
    Also there is interesting situation with helots there, and I hope, that their question could be solved better, that with JSA and Yu Jing. I like helots.

    So, this is sectorials I like. And what I like about them. Inspiring places.

    To talk about others...
    Svalarheima is interesting, but I like Yu Jing part of it more.
    Neoterra and Military orders are cool. Just it.

    And about all Infinity... I like the story. Some factions are not my choice at all, some are fine for me, and it is good to have variations for all tastes. Thanks, CB.
     
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  4. MicroWarp

    MicroWarp Well-Known Member

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    I've thought about this a lot recently. I used to play Nomads before selling up and starting Varuna last year (just in time for COVID to hit) as I really liked the model range and the unified army look on the table top. I've playing Varuna in the various online leagues to try and keep my hand in.

    Varuna has just got some great pieces. Patsy is just a great datatracker/frontline specialist type, she literally saved my bacon last game by D-charging a server though loads of enemy ARO's. Kamau's are great light mimetic infantry gunfighters. Zulu Cobra's are good mid field camo and specialists (although disposable jammer HAS hurt them and I don't feel like you can justify more than one jammer now) and sensor/triangulated speaks for itself, killer hacker won me a game. I've used the Montesa red fury a lot recently and it's a great attacker. The Varuna ORC's with stealth aren't bad either, never mind the mighty Cutter. Helots have basically gone in the bin, which is sad.

    That said, I think it's a VERY predictable sectorial, either you are taking the usual defensive list with a couple of attack pieces, or it's a Cutter drop and people are prepared for either. I saw Varuna described as a defensive sectorial and after some play time, I totally see what they mean, Echo Bravo's are a bit bland. If you are playing a scenario where you can defend, you'll be fine, if it's one like Mindwipe, needing almost to reach the backline, you might struggle. I've used an Patsy/ORC stealth haris team to some success allowing you to mitigate hacking.

    I've started looking at other PanO sectorials and it's clear that Neoterra and Acontecimento got retired because CB needed the design space and both used Aleph miniatures (I think CB is trying to stay away from mixing models outside of NA2 factions). My current thoughts on the different sectorials are as follows, bit of a brain dump:-

    Retired
    Neoterra (high tech gunfighters (the terror that is double swiss), no cheap camo, relatively poor midfield bar Auxilia, lords of their own deployment zone).
    Acontecimento (great mimetic gunfighters, great mid field camo, great TAG's, arguably the most balanced PanO sectorial (?) but I think CB wanted to reinvent them as Varuna).

    Active
    Varuna (great mimetic gunfighters, flexible mid field, arguably the best PanO tag in the Cutter (although I will accept arguments for the Tik))
    Svalaheima (no camo shenanigans (ninja doesn't count), but armour stronk on top of usual PanO mimetism, a touch of knights and the fantastic utility of climbing plus).
    Military Orders (should be the 'Deus Vult' PanO knight face punching sectorial by fluff, needs some tweaks which are on the way).

    If CB can actually drop some models for Sval and MO this year, Pan O is probably in a strong spot with active sectorials. None of the sectorials are face roll good but each should have their own nice draw. I expect the new MO to be very popular.

    Personally, I'm trying to decide between expanding outside of Varuna or picking up something different from a different faction.
     
    #4 MicroWarp, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
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  5. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Acon was my first army, and is still my favourite PanO sectorial. Between it and Varuna, the latter feels like it's slightly more defensive in nature, while Acon plays great using hammer and anvil and/or first strike approach. You can't rely on hi tech toys as other sectorials can, but the flexibility and fun factor are definitely there.

    MO was my second army, and it's slightly different. It forces you to go all in, balls first, as you don't have as much room to plan for contingencies. You need to get initiative and keep it, forcing the other player to react. Unfortunately, no iteration of MO really got the tools to pull this off fully, most of the time something feels off and doesn't mesh well with other parts of the army. I really hope the next attempt to rework them will succeed.
     
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  6. rgeiler

    rgeiler Member

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    Are MO actually getting reworked (as in profile changes)--or just new sculpts?
     
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  7. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
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    Supposedly both.
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    As an occasional Acon player, I'd love to hear what you mean by this!
     
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  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    (I have no idea if you're familiar with the term, so I'll explain it quickly. If you do know the term, please disregard ;) )

    Hammer and anvil is a strategy in which you use part of your force as a defensive bulwark - the anvil - positioned in a way that forces your opponent to engage it, significantly slowing him down or even stopping his advance entirely, and then using fast, hard-hitting units - the hammer - to outmaneuver opposing force and exploit any openings left after its fight against your anvil, effectively catching enemy troops between two threats. It's one of the basic concepts in military strategy.

    While all PanO sectorials can do this, Acon is especially adept at it. Concerning anvil, we have durable, linkable units with long range weapons, which aren't that easy to bypass even with HMGs (especially after N4 changed critical hits). We have very good midfield operators. There's are good and cheap minelayers available. Then there's TAGs - Acon was actually able to pull of a double TAG list in N3, and it's even easier in N4. After combining a number of these pieces we can make opponent's advance very difficult. Then there's hammer - between Montesa (I really hope we'll finally see a sculpt next month...), GdA, Akalis, and - again - TAGs - we have all the tools to exploit any weaknesses created by first engagements. Again, all PanO sectorials have access to such tools, but Acon can field more good options than others, while still having the space to include proper support and backup units.
     
    #9 Stiopa, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Awesome, thanks!
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Actually loving Vanilla at the moment. with Acon being a close second.

    Acon is easy, we had a bit of an SWC problem in N3, N4 fixed that by capping lists to 15 slots and making a lot of things 0.5-1 SWC cheaper. MSV1s are a lot better in N4 than they were in N3, ARM matters and both SAA TAGs got a very nice price reduction. We also have the C+ Orc and Feuerbach Orc as well as the Orc Haris not being shite to add to the list. Pretty much only improved across the board.

    For Vanilla it's more of the same. 15 Order Limit benefits us since you don't really need a plan to deal with a swarm of Impetuous Chainrifles anymore. There's gonna be 2 of them on the other side, they're not expenable anymore and that's it.
    Both Joans got a lot better and while the CoC Bolt got a bit more expensive, we have more floating points to afford the guy. With Triangulated Fire no longer being no brainer CC bailout for our TAGs, you really want your own CC to get them out of there. The humble Krakot still does that very well and is a crapload better in an environment where the average trooper's cost went up.
    TAG choices shifted from N3, the Tik is no longer by far the best and easiest choice. Still more very solid, but he doesn't bring the raw stats on a budget you get from the Dragao or the unmatched killing power and anti alpha strike security + ARO potential from a (much more affordable) Cutter.
    N4 makes the ARO game harder by removing the option to spam cheap bodies. PanO Vanilla has probably the best choice of ARO pieces out of every Vanilla Faction in the game. Cutter/Swiss ML/Hexa MSR (potentially paired with overlooked TR Bots), ARM8 Multi HMG/HRMC TAG to oppose/delay Active Turn pieces in ARO, Regular Minelayer/Auxilia/Krakot to secure our half of the board.

    In come the utility options. The standouts in my oppinion are the Echo Bravo Wildparrot Paramedic and the Aquila HMG.
    The EB is easy to figure out. Use your Active Turn pieces to clear a walk in zone. Threaten something within 20" of the board edge with a Wildparrot + MHMG tag team. Reliably kills, bricks or breaks the most dangerous things in the game. Kamau Sniper? No more Link bonus if you get Isolated, probably death by HMG if he tries to Dodge. TAG? Pretty bad odds to succeed the Dodge, best paired with a Hack to get Parrot or Hack as Normal Roll. HI? Better at Dodging, worse at surviving the BS Attack only opposed by a Dodge.
    And ofc he is still a BS13 Specialist with 2 choices of gun.

    In N3 the Aquila took a backseat to his brother the Swiss. Hidden Deployment and the massive increase in survivability made the Swiss worth the difference in points. Fast forward to N4 the Aquila is significantly cheaper than before and the Swiss HMG has trouble dealing with 2 high priority obstacles, punching through Armor and hitting Camo.
    N4 resulted into people relying a lot more on Camo to bolster their defenses and basically no one expects your reserve piece to be an Aquila HMG. Auto discover means guaranteed efficiency on top of still being a counter to Smoke. That said, he needs to be protected, can't deal with Hacking and still dies rather easily. Thanks to N4, you can easily use him as your 2nd biggest piece together with a TAG or Swiss M, he fits into 15 slot lists organically where he didn't before.
    There's a point to be made for the Specialist Operative MMR and that Profile is definitely excellent, however I really don't see him without a Link in Vanilla. The Aquila's purpose is to efficiently flank and engage things that thought they would be Order intensive or risky to engage behind their Camo State or Mimetism MODs, since we're PanO, we have to be able to pull that off from our DZ to gain a benefit or we might as well brute force the problem with a TAG.

    Joan. V1 is straight forward better and cheaper compared to N3. She does something new though. Where I didn't like that she turned your expendable Irregular troops into essential Order monkeys in N3 she now brings a way to fill up your slots to max for cheap, offsetting her cost and enabling you to bring the Warcor, Techbee and Helot you'd stop bringing in N4 otherwise. Wasn't a fan of V1 in Vanilla over 3 Fusiliers and 20 points to put elsewhere in N3, N4 makes her great at what she is supposed to do enhance your Order efficiency.
    V2 is the real winner here though. The non Lt EXP CCW "mini Achilles" was my favorite secondary Vanilla N3 Attack piece in a spammy 17+ Order list. Now she can be your Lt, does the same things V1 does in N4 and basically nets you "almost" Strategos and 3 Command Tokens, army wide Courage and ignoring Retreat, which never was more important if you can keep her alive. The only "downside" here is you absolutely have to run a (Bolt) CoC, easy enough to fit though, not a bad Specialist & backup gunner either. With the added benefit of running the most secure LoL management option PanO ever had access to in an edition where Lt assassination options are everywhere.

    Regular Hacker. WIP13, Fastpanda, LGL, 16 points. I can't explain this dude's pricing. A Fusilier LGL is 14, a Fusilier Hacker is 15. I'd happily take the WIP13 Hacker option for 16, Fastpanda and LGL for free? Yes please. Here comes the fun part. Got 2 Krakots, Joan and the Regular Hacker? You just got the option to Coordinated Spec Fire 2 Grenades and an LGL if you need it. 2x 10s (+potential Metachem improvements) & 1x 6s vs a Dodge -3. In between that and the Krakots rolling mobility options you have one of the better answers against inacessible Jammers, Morans, Deployable Repeaters and the likes of it. Land a Spotlight or Forward Observer and you're getting close to Guided lethality potential (if you can get in range). The Fastpanda (and your Fugazi) should guarantee you can safely get into Total Control range to get your TAG back when things go wrong. The guy might not as fancy as Bit&Kiss but he definitely play's in the A-League as far as token utility Hackers are concerned.

    Honorable mention to Lian Kai, who is basically a sidegrade/AVA increase for Krakots.
    • Reliable mobility Skill (though far worse than the better Metachem options)
    • Significantly better CC while retaining Berserk.
    • FTF/ARO BS options LSG, Chainrifle and WIP 14 Flashpulse
    • NWI + Mimetism & +3 Doge make him much more durable
    • Retains Berserk and FD 4", key pieces of the Krakot's kit
    Trading in Grenades and 7 points is well worth considering despite that being a 50% pirce increase. Non suicidal CC options and the ability to tank a non Shock hit.

    To sum it up, Vanilla PanO is surprising amounts of versatile and rigid at the same time. Our bag of tricks isn't massive but impressive. There isn't really much you can do to counter here even if you see it coming from a mile away.
    Massive hole in the PanO List? Swiss ML + EB Paramedic or Cutter?
    Expect an Aquila HMG reserve piece? What's the counter play in your Camo heavy list? Cede the board and hide everything?
    Yes any Joan in Vanilla is gonna be the Lt, period. Yes if you see a Bolt that Bolt is gonna be CoC. A lot of things in the game can attempt to kill or brick Joan. I don't know a lot of lists that can do part 1 reliably and even less that can deal with the Bolt directly afterwards to make it stick.
     
    #11 Teslarod, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  12. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
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    Really interested to see what kind of roster you have in mind for vanilla PanO
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Adjusted the phrasing a little. I do think there is merit to run a different Lt than Joan. Notably a Cutter Lt thanks to being able to get out of HD whenever you want with N4 ZOC ARO shenanigans.

    Probably going to outsource this into yet another N4 Vanilla thread rather than clogging up the discussion here.

    You can't fit the HD ARO piece, TAG, EB, Joan and Aquila in the same list, so you'll have to make some choices.
    Haven't really been able (yet) to build a satisfying Joan List with a Swiss ML for example, but would love to - Coordinated BS Attacks with a Krakot's DTW and a Swiss ML on top of a Parrot are nightmare fuel and can likely replace the need for a HMG in the list altogether.

    Imho Joan has to be leveraged as a secondary assault piece if you run her. So if you want some sort of HMG HI/TAG + Swiss ML you're not gonna be looking at a Joan list, might want to cut the Bolt for the usual 3x Fusiliers or 2x Fusiliers & cheeky Orc HMG Lt. On the plus side you get to run more Auxilia/Minelayers/Krakots in your slots.
     
  14. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    I don't get how you can be using the EB wildparot, it cost SWC and 25 pts for a one try E/M template, it will cost one of the precious 15 slots, orders to get in position (when it's even possible to get him into position: pass all the flash pulse bot and mines and daylami and whatever)
    all this is very unreliable
     
  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    First and foremost it's a BS13 unhackable AD Specialist in PanO with a Combi + LSG. The other AD Specialists are Akali Hacker Combi and Cube Jäger. Even without the Parrot this is the guy I'd pick in PanO if I wanted an AD Specialist.
    The LSG opens up the option to force a Dodge or trade against squishy targets. Wouldn't recommend it 1:1, but sometimes you can find an obvious Lt Interventor exposed or 3 Cheerleaders in a line hugging the same wall. The LSG also adds that DTW ARO to trade after doing your job.

    The Parrot itself can't be ARO'ed against and doesn't trigger ARO's for getting into ZOC, can go on rooftops etc. After landing you can Move the EB 4" outside of LOF and then get to place the Parrot 100% reliable within 8" of the movement path. Even if the EB eats an ARO, the Parrot is still going to be placed and it can't be destroyed or prevented on the same Order.
    E/M got a free upgrade to E/M2 in N4. It's a Crazy Koala with a E/M 2 Mine as payload.
    You can layer it with Hacking to force either the E/M Template or the Hack to become a Normal Roll. Or you can layer it with BS Attacks to force a Dodge ARO -3 (much less scary than a Kamau BS ARO) or 2 free E/M Hits on top of the BS FTF.
    Unopposed it bricks BTS6 75% of the time. Against a Dodge it's still going to be 30-50% on top of whatever is rolling FTF vs that Dodge.
    Just sitting there trying not to trigger the Parrot and eating the other attack unopposed can be the best option.
    Now that's aggressive use.

    On the defense there are a lot more spots close to your DZ to get on the board and brick a full HI Link, TAG or Elite HI on your doorstep. With the potential to drop in close to a Baggage bot to repeat this (running one in a Joan list opens the option to efficiently move the Baggage Bot in range for a reload too).
    On top of that having a 27 point hole in your PanO lists is always nice to keep your opponent guessing. What's that hole? Hexa KHD? Hexa MSR? TO Infiltrator? Another EB Profile? The first guess for most people is the Hexa MSR, that alone usually costs them an Order for maneauvers.
     
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    Have to say, this is about half the reason I don't play Vanilla PanO. The AD Specialist options (and even non-Specialists) are some of the worst in Infinity, and the only one that isn't Hackable comes without Combat Jump (which I know many players don't like, but it's valuable to me). My usual flavour is Neoterra. I picked it because nearly every soldier wears a full masked helmet, for its strong solo HI and the great Auxilia, and for the fun ALEPH loaners giving it an edge in Hacking and AD. N4 has been less than pleasant for me; I strongly dislike using large Fireteams and the faction becomes cripplingly vulnerable to Hacking lists without relying on Cores to do half the heavy lifting, and it's an uphill battle even then. If I had my time again, knowing what I do now, I'd have gotten into Acon instead since Regulars seem like a blast, the GdA is interesting, the TAGs actually work and the faction can bring a true midfield Skirmisher.
     
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  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    If most missions wouldn't require to get across the board and push buttons NCA would be godly.
    Gaining access to the Orc FB, unlocking Linkability with Fusiliers and adding CSUs is probably the best version of that Link when you're looking for a defensive turret (Sval's is better on Active with a Karhu FB, Varuna has the Kamau MSR for a less durable more FTF heavy alternative). Count in a layered TO ARO piece (likely a Hexa MSR, Swiss ML + Orc FB is a tight fit) and you have some of the best defensive backbone for a list you could imagine.
    That said the thing I like about NCA is that the Link doesn't have to do much. Your solo pieces (or shiny new N4 Haris) are going to do the heavy lifting in your Active Turn. SAA usually runs more individual pieces to carry the weight (and a TAG) and is a lot more efficient at engaging with Infiltration/Forward Deployment/C+ easily accessible.

    Talking about PanO Sectorials my favorite one is probably ForCo atm (cheeky take, I know).
    Orc Haris/Core with Bolts, Valk, Massacre, Laxmee and Avicienne to pick from? KB as solo gun support? Überallkommando and Zeroes?
    If it wasn't for the lack of a high value ARO piece for the LI Link as well as AVA1 Fugazi and Mulebots holding them back, they'd be a top shelf Sectorial. They fall just a bit short atm, but oh boy are they fun to play.
     
    #17 Teslarod, Feb 9, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  18. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    I know all this but if I need a specialist I would take a croc or zulu over a unreliable echo anytime
    the droping and moving to target alone is too much risk at least in my limited experience, with a combi even a daylami pzf in good/bad range can ruin your day
    but the defensive use never cross my mind

    to be fair I only played 20ish games in N4 and I don't like it a all
    PanO for me is defensive gameplay + strong ARO cleaning
    and I get rekt a lot by assassin on my full def acon list with a shitload of mines, the lack of delay from SS on FT makes our FT very weak + all the buff assassins got (triple template fiday, yolo andromeda etc)
    to me the game change a lot this edition and my PanO feel very weak, I even get out gunned by haqq and nomads
    I really dunno how and what to play
    I have little hope for MO but hey ! We can all hope for a divine intervention lol

    atm only acon and maybe vanilla look ok to me for ITS
     
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  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Shock for me, with NeoTerra and VIRD in the mix. Disclaimer: I'm not claiming any of these armies are unplayable. There are strengths and there are problems.

    Shock:
    The reason I'm gravitating towards Shock is that you can run superior gunfighting TAG + Core + Haris effortlessly, then have a deep toolbox to reach into for unusual missions. The Dragao's just so good right now. You get main battle TAG armor, but above-average gunfighting thanks to the HRMC, and somehow it ends up being cheaper than a lot of other Main Battle TAGs. Add in one of the game's better Core links with Regulars + Bagh Mari + ORCs, then a superior Haris built around Bagh Mari, and it sells itself. If you want Camo, it's there. If you want a good Hacker, she's there. AVA3 Fugazi and AVA2 Peacemakers are the N4 quality of life improvements that really round it out.

    Shock is still really similar to VIRD, and there are many reasons why I prefer Shock now. I actually thought Shock was a better army than VIRD in N3, and I don't think that's actually changed at all in N4.

    VIRD:
    I want to love VIRD, but the things that made the Sectorial special last edition are now broken. VIRD was built around a defensive playstyle, and CB has nerfed that defensive playstyle, without giving VIRD any special buffs to help offset that general nerf. It's as simple as that. Some VIRD units got better because of general edition changes, such as ORCs and TAGs getting cheaper, but no VIRD units received any edition-specific buffs to help offset the big nerfs.

    • Jammer was overnerfed. We know this.
    • Zulu Cobras in general don't feel like they bring something I want anymore, since they're mostly slinging Damage 13 shots, and all of PanO is good at slinging Damage 13 shots. I find that the amount of things in game that Zulu Cobras can effectively threaten/hurt is very low right now, and Zulu Cobras are a big part of why you pick Varuna to begin with.
    • This is true for a lot of the Snake Eaters... Their fragile, finesse-oriented Camo game doesn't matter as much when more opponents are running heavy metal and more durability.
    • Helots are bad. There's an iconic Sectorial unit that received no help and no attention with the edition change, but badly needed it. An Irregular unit with no Impetuous and no Active Turn role due to Neurocinetics is really poor when you're capped at 15 bodies. Helots, mechanically, were never very strong... Just BS11 shooting... So you needed to layer them with other defenses to make them a deterrent. With Jammer on Zulu Cobras now overpriced due to the multiple layers of nerfs they piled on the Jammer rules, it's just not worth paying for Jammers anymore, which means they can't be layered with Helots, which means Helots just aren't a threat anymore, and take up unjustifiable space in a Tac Window format. I'd actually be more inclined to take them if Neurocinetics just went away, making them cheap disposable active-turn hitters with Limited Camo.

    It's not all bad with VIRD, of course. I love the Parrot. I love the Cutter in missions that support it, and (to a small degree) I love some of the flexibility in their Haris teams (though this isn't really exclusive to VIRD anymore.) Patsy does an okay job leading her Haris, but being Hackable is a bigger liability now than it was in N3, and I wasn't always happy with her in N3; the Submachine Gun is a very, very limited weapon, though throwing frag grenades and her ability to land a d-charge in desperation situations helps adds some utility back to the mix.

    For general purposes though, I don't value VIRD's strengths compared to Shock, unless I was making use of one of their aforementioned niches. Bagh Mari bring almost all of what Kamau Bring, and the things that Bagh Mari lack (Stealth, Shock immunity) they make up for in other areas (mines, shotguns, Number 2, Terrain: Total, MSV1 now seeing through Smoke.) For some reason, VIRD's ORC profiles are available to other Sectorials too. I can't really value Zulu Cobras and Crocs over Nagas and Dart, though obviously I appreciate having awesome PanO operators more than borrowing from ALEPH. Rules-wise though, the profiles, tools, and rules of Nagas and Dart are pretty useful this edition. Even little quality-of-life things, like AVA2 Peacemakers or AVA3 Fugazi, are missing from VIRD.

    NCA:
    If you don't need go get up the field in a hurry, NCA's probably the "safest" version of PanO to play. Great active turn firepower, great ARO capability, and you can pretty easily field half a dozen Auxbots without having to go out of your way very much. If you can lock the table with AROs and Auxbots, and keep the game stable enough to take your time footslogging to objectives, NCA has a ton to offer. Making the enemy brave a flamethrower hit without risking your own Order is a legitimately big deal this edition.

    NCA's really too tactically limited to bring to a really diverse ITS lineup, but they can some quite a few missions very, very well. You really need to run a Haris in any mission focused on objectives, and you need to protect and escort that Haris with everything you have, because it's really the only way to delivery Specialists to the midfield and get a mission done.
     
    Goorie, Shrooms, Sangarn and 3 others like this.
  20. Shrooms

    Shrooms Well-Known Member

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    On the subject of reimagining Helots I’d like to see them change to a Peripheral (Control) unit. I think that would work fluff wise (a kamau ‘helot liaison officer’ or something?) as well as helping VIRD work differently from Shock.
    (I’d also like to see Kuang Shi treated the same way).
     
    Goorie, barakiel and tom_w like this.
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