This may sound silly, but an argument has sprung up over the new fireteam details. The old fireteam rules stated "+1 to burst on a BS Attack" while the new fireteam rules say "+1 to burst on a BS Weapon." While it may seem like the same thing, there has been debate about what is considered a BS Weapon because it isn't defined in the rules. One interpretation is that Pistols get +1 Burst, even in CC, because their CC mode is in the same category as other guns on the wiki. Others say the CC mode implies it's now a CC weapon. One interpretation is since BS Weapon, while implied to be a weapon that uses BS to hit, isn't a defined term. If we define it as a weapon that uses BS to shoot, not all guns use BS, does a chain rifle get the burst bonus? Does the shotgun hit mode get it but not the shotgun template? Some say the burst bonus shouldn't apply to any weapons RAW, since BS weapons are a category of weapon. The wiki has CC weapons, shotguns, Pistols, rifles; but no category that labels any of them as BS Weapons for the buff. While obviously not how it's intended, it's how it's written. I know this sounds kind of silly, but could we get some clarification on what constitutes a "BS Weapon?"
RAW may indeed be iffy, but my first instict would be that a BS weapon is any weapon that uses the BS stat for the given order.
That's my first instinct as well, BS Attack implies to me the weapon used is a BS Weapon, but then technicalities pop up if we qualify it on the BS stat. Chain rifles don't use the BS stat but used to get the bonus. Do Trenchhammers in thrown mode get the bonus since it's a BS Attack that uses PH?
That would exclude all DTWs from gaining fireteam burst bonus. The thing is I couldn't say if that would be a bad thing. I have yet to see a 5arm 2w b4 dam14 chain rifle 22point Kaitok in super cheap Haris, but the idea itself terrifies me more than facing pedobear.
Yeah, that's where I'm coming from, too. Question is whether CB anticipated this and rephrased it intentionally. @Teslarod brought up a good point though and I believe he is correct.
Which old Fireteam rules are you looking at? The N3 and original N4 Fireteam rules say "can apply a +1 Bonus to the Burst (B) value of their BS Weapons.". The updated N4 Fireteam rules say "can apply a +1 Bonus to the Burst (B) value of their BS Weapons.". Note that if you search the wiki for 'BS Weapon' you get taken to 'Ranged Weapon Profile': "In Infinity, every Weapon has its own game profile and some of them even have special usage rules. This chapter describes how to read such a profile, and each Weapon is detailed individually in the Weapons Chart. The MULTI Rifle will be used as an example to explain how to read a BS Weapon profile."
Since I'm dealing with the overarching discussion, here's the context for this: They want to stack Enhanced Reaction with Fireteam Burst Bonus. From where I stand it doesn't work because ER is a fixed B2 to everything (i.e. CC Attack or BS Attack) and Fireteam Burst Bonus applies to the weapon's Burst, so both affect different things in the rules and don't stack. Even though the N3 passus about static MODs applying last got removed. They're also getting very confused about thie blue box Fireteam bonus summary. Which is literally wrong in several places. It's +1B BS Weapon, not +1B BS Attack. And +1 to BS Attacks, not +1BS. Not sure why they are hellbent on making B3 Enhanced Reaction Bots in Fireteams a thing, but it's kind of a bad faith line of argumentation.
Yeah, I asked the question at first because they were trying to argue the Enhanced reaction thing, as well as trying to get +1B in CC with the fireteam bonus, since a pistol is a BS Weapon normally but was trying to argue that it's CC mode is in the same chart as BS weapons and should get the fireteam burst too. Neither seemed right to me, so I wanted to ask and I'm not good at summarizing arguments.
Pistols are BS Weapons. Pistol (+1B) works in both BS Attack and CC Attacks. BS Weapon (+1B) on a Ghulam is synonymous to : Rifle (+1B), Light Shotgun (+1B), Pistol (+1B). ie. adds (+1B) to all your BS Weapons. And we know Pistol (+1B) gets B bonus in CC Attacks. Does it matter that it is a specifically called out Pistol (+1B) on the Unit Profile or a general BS Weapons (+1B) ? Also, I doubt that the whole Weapon Chart are BS Weapons as it includes all CC Weapons which are obviously not BS Weapons. It is true the redirect is not to the actual Weapon Chart but to the Ranged Weapon Profile page. When that page talks about "how to read such a profile" from the Weapons Chart, do they mean to read profiles of weapons that have a Range band ? Because if so, I'll point out that both Rifle and Chain Rifle are expected to be Ranged Weapon even if the latter doesn't have Range Bands. But, perhaps that by context, since that page is in the Ranged Attack rule section of the Combat Module, then Ranged Weapon are therefore weapons used for the BS Attacks (which includes ranged bands weapons as well as impact and direct templates). It is a strange argument that Fireteam's +1B to BS Weapons should apply the CC Mode Pistols and possibly to CCWs. But the Trait named "CC" doesn't specify anything else than "this weapon can be used for CC Attacks", nothing about how B is always 1 in CC. The Pistol weapon has a specific page and it too doesn't mention anything about B being always 1 in CC Attacks (and from the FAQ, anyway, we know that the B can be modified by the Unit Profile). I'm at lost of word to argument my bias (of "we always played like that") that +B doesn't apply to CC Attacks made with BS Weapons. But the fact ER can apply B2 to CC Attacks makes me think I need to revisit my position, as once again, I never played that ER could apply to CC Attacks; yet the rules are clear it does. As for which comes first between B=2 and +1B, i don't have any opinion. edit: other point, "CC" is defined as "this weapon can be used for CC Attacks". That by itself does not means it can't be used for BS Attacks. But, the lack of range bands as well as the lack of Teardrop templates does indeed make it impossible to use it in a BS Attack; therefore the CC Mode not only is a Weapon usable in CC but it also stops being a Ranged Weapon since that mode can't be used by any rules of the Ranged combat rule section. As we are interested in increasing the burst of "bs weapon" (redirects to ranged weapons, in the context of the BS Attack rule section) we don't increase the Pistol's B in CC Mode. So the BS Weapon (+1B) is synonymous to only (+1B) on all BS Attacks applicable modes of a unit's weapons collection.
I don't think it's a bad faith argument at all. Previously, questions about the program overlapping with fireteam bonuses were easy to say No, because the Fireteam rules said it didn't stack with programs. The revised FT rules now say that they DO stack. OLD: NEW: And the only Hacking Program that modifies Burst in any way is Enhanced Reaction. If that coda doesn't refer to any existing program, why was it changed?
that is a strong argument. But it could refer to other programs that provides bonuses. Possibly some skill/equipment provide Burst MOD and some program provide some other non-burst bonuses and so they put everything together in a single sentence.
Enhanced Reaction granting a flat B2 in ARO applies to CC attacks, BS Attacks, Hacking Attacks and possibly more stuff I'm forgetting. None of that matters for CC Weapon Profile Burst, BS Weapon Profile Burst and Hacking Program Burst. BS Weapon Burst is reduced from i.e. B3 for a Rifle to 1 in ARO (as per the ARO rules) and gets to use the +1 Burst for Fireteams on that modified 1, since Fireteam bonus allows to be used in ARO. Using a BS Attack with Enhanced Reaction, you can pick to either user the Weapon's modified Burst of 1+1=2 or apply the flat B2 because it's an ARO. For comparison a TR Bot is allowed to use the full BS Weapon Burst in ARO (in case of a HMG 4). This doesn't stack with Enhanced Reaction either. That's honestly already including interpretation. Enhanced Reaction has no interaction with Total Reaction or BS Weapons and I'm actually leaning towards claiming RAW, this makes it not a choice. And both a TR Bot and a generic REM would always be hard locked into using B2 for all AROs regardless of any MOD affecting weapon Burst like TR, Neurokinetics or Fireteams (this can still be reduced by MODs such as Saturation Zones that affect the Attack itself). Enhanced Reaction is neither Mandatory, nor Optional but *just applies*, interesting scenario.
This particular thread has nothing to do with Enhanced Reaction, it's an argument about whether Pistols are BS Weapons when used in Melee for Fireteam burst bonus purposes. Don't confuse the two topics. Here's Enhanced Reaction: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/enhanced-reaction-and-new-fireteam-burst-mod.40984/ Also, I would really like to see people quoting rules to back up their arguments instead of arguing from an authority they don't have, respecting of course that proving something doesn't exist is not feasible.
I'm just gonna provide examples for BS Attack Burst MODs applying AFTER BS Weapon Burst MODs. Saturation Zones. You can split your the Burst 3 of your Rifle to three different Targets in a Saturation Zone. Sat Zone will then treat that as 3 different BS Attacks with Burst 1 each, and never interacts with your Weapon Burst at all. Similar to this you calculate your Weapon Burst as Normal for a REM with Enhanced Reaction in a Fireteam. In ARO the Burst of your Rifle goes from 3 to 1 and you get to apply a +1 to that for being in a Fireteam. If you use BS Attack in ARO you get to use Enhanced Reaction which lets you declare AROs, i.e. BS Attack in our case with a Burst of 2. We don't care that our weapon is Burst 1+1, we get to replace whatever our Burst is with a fixed 2 when using an ARO. Next example. Total Reaction applies to Weapon Burst, so does stack with Fireteam bonus. If we were a TR Bot in a Fireteam (doesn't exist) with weapon Burst 4+1, buffed with Enhanced Reaction, the REM could pick to make BS Attack AROs with B2 or B5 (I'm assuming you get to pick, since ER is not Obligatory), but not B3.
And you have yet to prove that there is a functional difference in the rules to what the burst is applied. As I told you on Discord, BS Attack's burst value is the weapon's burst value. Whether the burst value is just raw weapon value or an agglomeration of burst MODs from the gun, fireteam, a direct mod from using BS Attack skill, and saturation, it's all modifying the same value and the rules show no preference to one or the other (that you've been able to show). https://infinitythewiki.com/BS_Attack If the attacker has more than one target and a BS Weapon, Special Skill or piece of Equipment with a Burst value higher than 1, they must distribute their attacks as part of the BS Attack declaration. Now can you please take this to the relevant thread linked above so we don't have to repeat arguments that has already been made and pollute a different topic?
I've literally just posted the example of MODs being applied to the same thing but in an order. BS Weapon Burst MODs come first and BS Attack MODs come after. It's Burst = BS Attack B (BS Weapon B + BS Weapon MODs) + BS Attack MODs For the Saturation example Burst = BS Attack B (BS Weapon B = 3, no MODs) AND Saturation Burst = 3x B1 BS Attack + Saturation Burst = 3x B1 BS Attack Enhanced Reaction example following the same Principle Burst = BS Attack B (BS Weapon B =1, +1 for Fireteam 3man) AND Enhanced Reaction ARO B=2 Burst = BS Attack B (BS Weapon B = 2) AND Enhanced Reaction ARO B=2 Burst = B2 BS Attack If that's not the order, Saturation would reduce your Burst by -1 before you get to split Burst.
Is there anything that suggest that you apply fireteam bonus before outside rule sets your burst to something? Reactive turn turns your burst to 1, why isn't this applied at the same time as ER setting burst to 2? Following your logic you would get burst 4 for hmg, then apply +1 for fireteam, and after that set it to 1 because reactive turn. The way I understand it is: Reactive turns wants to set burst to 1, ER kicks in and sets it to 2 instead. After this mods are applied.
Total Reaction allows you to use the full Burst of your weapon in ARO when using BS Attack. So it is a BS Attack MOD (since it says so), which means it applies after BS Weapon MODs. Since it let's you use BS Weapon Burst value, it's a good thing that it applies after. Because we previously have modified our HMG's Burst value by +1 for being in a Fireteam. So a hypothetical Linked HMG TR Bot has B5. If you do not have an established order here you run into a problem. What if you apply the MOD to BS Attack first allowing BS Attack to use the Weapon's Burst value and then increase the Weapon's Burst value after you already established that your BS Attack is firing at B4? You'd have no way to retroactively get that bonus if you check BS Attack MODs before Weapon Burst MODs. Unless all MODs are additions and substractions you need an order to them to determine the correct outcome, there's nothing in the rules that tells you which MODs to apply first in a mixed addition and static scenario like in N3 (when setting a stat to a fixed value happened after +/- MODs). Note that setting Burst to a fixed value, then adding +1 is two stacking MODs. But adding +1 and then setting Burst to a fixed value is also two stacking MODs. Just because you don't get a benefit from both doesn't mean they both applied. How do you propose to find a solution in the rules for a clear order in which we should apply those MODs? Is it supposed to be +1->B=X or B=X->+1 in RAW? Couldn't find one to be honest, which is why I'm sticking with the BS Weapon MODs first, then BS Attack MODs.
CC throwing weapon: CC Throwing Weapon The various types of CC Throwing Weapon are CC Weapons with two usage modes. Throwing Mode uses the PH Attribute to make BS Attacks. Weapons used in this Mode are considered BS Weapons for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, CC Mode uses the CCAttribute to make CC Attacks in Close Combat. Pistol: Burst Mode uses the BS Attribute to make BS Attacks. On the other hand, CC Mode uses the CCAttribute to make CC Attacks in Close Combat. “Oh, yeah, they meant for their to be a difference in CC Throwing Weapons (the profile you use determines what the weapon is), but didn’t mean for their to be a difference in Pistols” is a joke not worth defending.
