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What if Engage...

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Mahtamori, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    ...used CC attribute instead of PH?
    ...or was moddable by Martial Arts etc?

    I find that Engage as it is is a bit of a... bad ability. Not only does it expose you to some very nasty counter-attacks, but it is also very easy to avoid since a simple Dodge is one of the least potent defences a unit can make use of in this game.
    The "opponent places your model" deal is just a kick in the teeth.
     
  2. Audun54

    Audun54 Well-Known Member

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    CC attribute I think would be a bit too powerful given how high it can be, especially since Engage functions as a dodge so works against other potential AROs the scenario could create.
    I do like your idea of Martial Arts modding it though. I think that would be a really cool addition that would be very cinematic.
     
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  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Shinobu dodging any attack from 4" or less on a 25? No thanks!

    The MA option might have legs, there's already precedent with i-kohl working with dodge or engage.

    I generally find Engage just gives a 2-4" no-go zone around CC units though, the threat of engage tends to come into play a lot more than the actual skill.
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I think they way they do it right now is actually fine. Perhaps they just need to give Hyper-Dynamics/Kinematica to more CC troops? I mean a Samaritan already Engages on 15s within a 4" radius.

    I guess the problem is that the Physique attribute does several things that are only loosely related:
    1. Ability to accurately hit with Thrown Weapons --> boost by getting in the appropriate range band, link bonus, etc.
    2. Dodge incoming attacks --> boost with H-D/Kinematica
    3. Accurately land with Airborn Deployment --> boost with EVO hacker, supportware, landing beacon
    4. Damage things in CC --> boost with MA or equivalent
    5. Use a medikit/regeneration to not kill yourself --> No boost available AFAIK
    That means that if you only want to buff one or two of the above, you need to start with a lower PH and add skills that increase it for those particular uses.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, Shinobu dies if she engages. I've seen her killed so many times because she didn't go for either of the two better options: Combi or Dodge into higher level cover. It is hilarious when she gets her throat cut with a knife by a Moderator because of it, so it's not much of a no-go zone
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know Nomads that well, but what Moderators have knives... and the ability to kill a Shinobu with said knife once engaged considering their CC is 13? I mean, sure... crits happen, but that's not exactly the Shinobu's fault.

    Or did you mean the act of engaging? I guess I agree that a combi shot would be better (hits on 14 instead of engaging on 13), but dodging into cover when you can engage? With a CC 25 troop?
     
    #6 Sabin76, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't know Nomads, either. I have seen Tankhunters and Keisotsu kill Shinobu in melee due to Engage. Engage is basically the only time that a bland CC value of between 13 and 19 is good - I mean, for the target of said Ninja trying to Engage.
    Don't stare yourself blind on the CC value, she's still a 47 point model and a 33% risk of going unconscious against a Keisotsu shooting versus only a 44% chance of Engaging is... crap. When returning fire it depends on if she's got cover or not, but in either case tossing a smoke grenade will be better for Shinobu.
    And this is against 9 point model. Take something a bit more interesting to actually get into CC with and it goes really poorly. Taskmasters, Hsien or S.A.S are all very predictable - all of which are merely decent in CC yet Shinobu has less than 25% chance to Engage versus roughly 50% chance of dying and these are all enemies that should, considering Shinobu's CC level, be eaten alive if they stray within 4". Kind of like how Shinobu shouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell if caught at range of an Aquila.

    (CC value to Engage a SWAST is 72% to Engage, 11% to die)
    (MA applied to Engage against a SWAST is 46% to Engage versus 33% to die)
    (MA+CC to Engage against a SWAST is 88% chance to Engage versus 6.4% to die)
    (MA MODs applicable to Engage is probably the better balance)
    (SWAST, Hsien, S.A.S, Knights Santiago, Asawira, Miranda etc occupy roughly the same segment of "nearly, but not quite, good at CC" and will all have more or less the above values)
     
    #7 Mahtamori, Dec 5, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't object to engage using unmodified CC and losing the ridiculous enemy places your model rule. Putting MA into it would break it, and it would be nice to see high CCs without MA3 get indirectly buffed and DTWs get indirectly nerfed. Even Shinobu is going to get repelled by the pistol a fair amount of the time.
     
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  9. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    While using CC would be too much for some units, I'm in for giving some kind of positive modifier; right now Engage is very risky.
     
  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    I like the idea of using CC modifiers.

    "Engage with 2 dice with MA4" and "Engage unopposed with Berserker" are the most scaring option there, but if you were fool enough to get close to such a monster, shame on you!
     
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I ask again: what about just giving more CC specialist troops Hyper-Dynamics (+Kinematica, a la Samartian)? Is the problem that people only want to buff engage, but not dodge?

    Just imagine Shinobu with H-D 1 or (gasp) 2! Dodging/Engaging on 16s/19s?
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well considering they nerfed the Samaritan's PH down from 13 to 12 with respect to the earlier Legate profile, I'm guessing CB has some phobia of actually making good troops with dodges too high...
     
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  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the fear is that they would be too untouchable in the active turn dodging up the board unscathed. If that's the case, someone should tell them that 1 die on 18 against many potential AROs (and you don't even get the move) is not only not great, but is a pretty inefficient use of orders unless they have 6- or 8- MOV (And even then...).
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Dodge work okay as it is. ARO isn't meant to be hyper-powerful, but we also have to respect that Engage has a severaly restricted range while Dodge is limitless in range and also respect that unless the Engaging model is in Hidden Deployment, the range is almost exclusively dictated by the target.

    Adding more Hyper Dynamics wouldn't be a bad idea in general (it's a cool but weak skill), but it is not a fix for the problems with Engage being a very weak skill and extra risky for all 1w troops.

    HypD should be given to troops that are extra evasive, but all melee troops have need of better Engage skill reliability.
     
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  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    What if CC skills like MA or Proth gave a +3 bonus to just Engage (that could then stack with H-D)?
     
  16. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    What if Kinematica gave +3 to Engage rolls? A lot of troopers that want to be able to engage already have it.
     
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  17. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    I understand that the biggest problem is that engage is tied to dodge, and a high dodge unit can be really tough to dislodge, although it is somewhat unreliable due to the nature of the single dice.

    Kinematica giving a bonus to engage is actually a pretty decent idea. I am skeptical of doing anything that would raise the natural dodge of things like Myrmidons or Dog Warriors, but the range for engage is very limited from the get go, so I do not think raising the chances of that would be too much of a problem.
     
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Sammies dodge/engage on a 15, that's waaaay above average.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Still not high enough to be dangerous. Or to survive mines with any certainty.
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I mean, it's higher than 90+% of other troopers in the game.

    Yes, the Samaritan isn't great vs. mines (unless it's already eaten a wound), I guess it'll have to settle for being amazing in CC, good at shooting, excellently armed, able to join some brilliant links, ridiculously mobile, and have no downsides from Frenzy/Impetuous.