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What does White Banner need?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Aug 17, 2021.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I unfortunately don't' have the N4 books and don't know the back story. But just going by the name, the world they live on, and who they primarily go up against (PanO). Heavy/Light Rocket Launcher, Flammenspeers and Vulkan Shotgun totally make sense. But also I think Terrain Total would be one those cheap additions that makes them in tune with the story. There's not many HI with Terrain other than Orc, Aquatic and Suryat, Jungle. I'm not keen on them having Continuous Damage on weapons that don't already have it. But due to their armor I'd like the have Immunity to it.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This here.

    I'm not excited about White Banner and haven't been since giving them a shot when they first came out. Turns out the sectorial feels mostly like a safe sectorial from 10 years ago. It's not catering to a theme or enabling spicy playstyles. Yes, there's a bunch of skirmish elements, but in practice the costs of the units and the way AVA works means that you're still playing with basically the same or even fewer skirmish elements than vanilla Yu Jing can do, let alone Ariadna and their sectorials, Shas, or Combined.
    End effect is that White Banner tends to be structured just like most bad or mediocre sectorials out there - and the game already has far too many of those sectorials.
    It's not the same (and it shouldn't be the same). ORCs have sectorial-specific spicy loadouts and by price and function they're a bit more like Zuyong/WuMing/Jujak.
     
  3. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Thats it. The armor design looks like its special suited against fire. I think the fire theme should be honered by the skill, even its only a niche skill. BSG = VSG would suit them too. Apart from this, the weaponary is set, because the box is already designed. A Feuerbach profile would be nice though. YJ has not much and far as I know not a single one that has the weapon modeled on a mini (again a missed chance, but again it looks like YJ should not have much Feuerbachs (Pan O = 3, Nomads = 3, Aleph = 2, all others 1 or 0 (not counting NA2))).
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    It feels like sometimes that if Yu Jing gets something unique, it's not for long. Madraps, Remote presence HI, for example. There's others I can't remember.
     
  5. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    The two figures that I keep including on my lists but never get utilized properly are Ye Mao and Jujak.

    Ye Mao always LOOKS like a good choice on paper, between the specialist options, MSV1, and gear like Panzerfaust and D charges. It seems like a very versatile unit that would be great to push towards objectives, but nearly every single game I’ve played with one ends with him rooted in one spot for the entire game, having done nothing but acted as a cheerleader. I’m honestly not sure why but 90% of the time I don’t even activate him. Maybe it's just a me problem and I need to commit to trying to do more with him.

    Jujak has a similar problem. I can’t for the life of me figure out how to use him. Putting him on a fireteam with Shang Ji seems like a waste, but likewise on his own he never really does anything for me. Just tends to feel like the worst option for any situation you put him in. He inevitably just chills in the deployment zone for the whole game, too far away from the action to use his weapons effectively, let alone utilize his templates defensively. I feel like a custom WB profile that either had mimetism or a bit of forward deployment would make him more useful. Maybe if he was just meant to be a DZ defender it would be okay, but even though some of his profiles might be good for that, I figure that from a flavor perspective (and AVA) he's meant to do more than that.
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I was the same. But the are so expensive for what they do. Where is the price for them?! A Karhu is a point cheaper but so much better! Yes not a MI like the Ye Mao but MSV1, Mimetsim, C+ instead of Super Jump, Multi Rifle. But they also get mines, BS13. So much better than a YM! the only profile I like is the KHD because he can cybermask.

    I think Jujak were meant to be aggressive but other than giving them HFT they have nothing that lets them be that.
     
  7. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I have actually been getting more games in with a Ye Mao Haris and a Shang-Jisus Wildcard. I have been enjoying it as the Ye Mao help take out the threats the Shang-Jisus struggles with.

    Getting more time in with the Ye Mao makes me wish they had a fireteam Core option and maybe a few more units that could join them like Liang Kai? If Ye Mao had Core, I could definitely see using them mixed in with some of our other wildcards, and that defensive Ye Mao ML would be pretty nice in a 5 man.
     
  8. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    This is legal in White Company

    KAPLAN (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, Adhesive Launcher, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    KAPLAN Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 23)
    SHONA CARANO Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)

    3 SWC | 130 Points

    This is Not legal in WB
    YĚ MĀO Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29)
    YĚ MĀO (Engineer, Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31)
    JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / AP + DA CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol. (0 | 36)
    LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21)
    JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)

    3 SWC | 149 Points

    What the hell CB?
     
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  9. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    No they are not, the only relevant loadout is on Sval ones with climbing plus, the other ones are basically flavor notes
     
  10. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    So stealth on Varuna div is just a useless flavor note?
     
  11. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Mostly, yes
    Literally came up once in my games ever

    Calling it comparable to Zuyong/Wuming/Jujak separation is wild
     
  12. Sedral

    Sedral White Banner Officier

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    They're actually worse than zuyongs, because they don't even have tactical awareness options. Overall, the HFT is the cherry on a very, very stale biscuit.
    Even when I'm trying to make a snowy pain-train list, there's only one jujiak in there (the engie) because all the other stuff that I want is on the shang-ji: Paramedic, Hacker, HMG and tac aw order. The only purpose I see to the jujiaks is to act as corner guards for your fireteam, which isn't the way fireteam are built anymore.
     
    #32 Sedral, Aug 20, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
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  13. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that this is what he meant. It's about Orks being around the price of Jujak/Zuyong/Wuming. He mentioned that house somebody compared Shang Ji to Orks while the former are in different price range, and on top of that they have sectorial based load outs. It's stupid that winter for can field Varuna and vice versa but whatever.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    "by price", mainly. They're closer to Zuyong and Jujak by price and spot on for Wu Ming. Shang-Ji is more expensive. Function ties into price a lot as well - comparatively cheap heavy weapons carriers that lets the more expensive troops do their thing safer

    And if you can't make good use of Stealth, then that's on you.
     
  15. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    I've been playing White Banner for a while now. Mostly in anticipation of more Shaolin Monks / Tibetan themed sculpts. Gameplay wise I'm totally into Infiltrating Camo troops and cheap warbands. IMHO CB initially done a great job in representing WB's character with miniatures, limited Liang-Kai being my favorite Infinity miniature of all time... visuals wise there's so much space for awesome Tibetan style, sadly left mostly unexplored. We got like a single basic monk. Super sad as I would play four if available.

    Looking at WB I can't help but feel there's an identity crisis with it. Hac Tao and Zhencha being absent from their sectorial is for me a huge "WTF" and a hype stopper.

    Now, gameplay wise I do think WB is "ok" for the most part. Just am not sure if worth picking over vanilla Yu-Jing. If I go full camo infiltration, there's no need for playing a sectorial. If I want a HI link I can go IA and drag specialists alongside without need of infiltrating them. If I want specialized heavy hitters and fuel I go ISS. White Banner is points intense and seem to be in a place where Tunguska was at release. A bit stronger due to Camos, but list building wise COVFEFE it's close.

    Right now it is difficult to build a list of over 10 models with good stuff in it, without fielding Zhanshis. Pretty bad design to see a unit being almost compulsory.

    If I was to whishlist:
    I think Shaolin Monks Fireteam Special (2-5 models) with Liang Kai would see both highly needed fuel and Liang Kai jumping up in the power level tier. Also add a lot of flavor - Kung Fu monks of different styles - huge space for some awesomeness. Might also see some Shaolin profiles actually being used more than NEVER. -_-

    Jujak should get a wildcard, plain and simple. Being able to add a HI Engineer to fireteams would resolve many issues. Medium costed, durable specialist to tag along, Guijia's best friend (to probably put her down but whatever), durable defensive add-on to Zhanshi fireteam. Would also see WB being more Specialist Play oriented.

    Same goes for named characters, they should just get a Wildcard.

    Quiang Gao should go away. I think it's forced here.

    Finally I have a beef with Ye Mao. I think it sucks. Not forcing this opinion onto anyone, just my personal take. Overcosted, a bit bloated, squishy AF Pre-update-Wildcat'ish problematic sheit. Not reliable enought to justify the cost.

    Reading through the comments I must disagree that another mid-costed unit would solve the issues. There's already a problem of mid-cost saturation. (Still I wouldn't mind Zhenchas making their way to WB. Would fill the void between expensive Fireteam -based hitters or Daofei and mid costed less Attack'ish Guilangs :P).

    Anyway, here's my opinion. Please do not eviscerate me over this. Am not a common Yu-Jing forum visitor.
     
  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree with almost everything.

    The problem, I see as of now with Shaolin fireteam is that they need something like Inspiring Leadership to turn their Irregulars in to regular. That would be fantastic if Liang Kai had that in WB only.

    Man I'd love a New Wu Tang Mountain with Taoist monks!

    I've tried doing a lot of camo troops but like was said, might as well play vanilla. Zhencha could be cool but I think they could make Hundun a little better. They have so few profiles and could do a lot more.

    I really don't like needing to take Zhanshi AVA4 + 1 Shang Ji to try to get over a group of 10. If I take even one more SJ it's not likely to happen.

    As far as a new troop, I propose a new cheap troop not mid-teir. A 15-25pt troop. ISS has ABH for example. I'm not saying them though.

    I think most of us agree about Jujak need to be able to make a fireteam on their own and possibly being the wildcard.
     
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  17. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I see a lot of good takes from both of you, but the one thing I think is weird is complaining about the Line Infantry used as filler slots. This is a theme amongst most sectorials and is not unique to WBA? If anything, WBA is missing out by not have AVA total Zhanshi.

    Also I generally get to 15 orders pretty easily, with Long Ya and Shaolin monks it seem pretty easy. The last list I used had a Ye Mao/SJ Haris and 4 guilangs and was still able to hit the 15 order limit.


    I do think the TJC comparison is fair, but man does WBA play way better than release TJC, and it hits 15 orders way easier than TJC.
     
    #37 ldgif, Aug 20, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2021
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  18. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Yeah I also have no problem getting to 15 - just fill slots with monks, they always pull more than their weight so to speak
     
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  19. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    To be fair the Hundun is perfect as is. It is an Ambush Specialist in not just name, but form - perfectly rounded for what it is supposed to do. The HRL profile is sick AF imho. Zencha in the other hand is more reliable as a secondary attack piece, due to additional wound (wannabe wound). Climbing plus Camo with a Panzerfaust and SMG is... simply great for the points cost. Can attack from unexpected vectors. Has lots of uses. Can withstand some portion of bad luck too.

    Coming from Nomads 16-30 is what I consider mid-tier. Right now there's Guilangs, Jujaks and Tian Gous occupying the spot. In my opinion Ye Mao should drop like 3 points to reliably fit in the category.
    Btw Tian Gou is really good - with holoechos is capable of clearing midfield from enemy mines and similar stuff. It's just that usually there's no points left to fit it in the list.

    When we talk 15 orders we (I assume we both) mean regular, or like max 2 irregular. I'm fielding 4 Shaolin Monks and a Warcor as a filler second group on regular basis, but this just doesn't count as a 15 order list. It's a 10 orders list with expendable meat shield.
    BTW I consider Long-Ya to be an auto-include, no matter the mission. Points cost is sick for what it brings, 0SWC minelayer with Camo on top of anything else. Sick. If AVA was 6 I would play 6. That how good I consider this to be :P
     
  20. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Ah okay, that totally makes sense. I pretty much play WBA for monks, Long Ya, and Guilangs. The Shang-Jisus fireteam, Daofei, and Hundun are more like cherries on the top for me.
     
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