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What does JSA do better than other factions?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Shatidox, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Shatidox

    Shatidox Well-Known Member

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    Hello guys
    First of all, I love the aesthetics of the Japanese units and my selection of this faction was purely based on that, but I also like to play to a factions strengths rather than attempt to make it do something it wasn't intended for.
    While playing around with army builder I started comparing with other factions and I began wondering what JSA does better than the other factions.

    The obvious answer here is of course that JSA has some units that have very high close combat stats, but I'm having a hard time finding obvious synergies in how to get those units into close combat without doing suicide runs, if that is our specialty. I feel like I'm doing something wrong for sure trying to get a low movement, low armor, low BS, expensive access to smoke army, into CC.
    To give a few examples of what I'm thinking about:

    JSA has a lot of infiltrators but they are expensive, USARF does infiltration spam much better than we do.

    JSA has surgical infiltrators in the Oniwaban and Shinobu but many other factions have drop troops or impersonators that can even start in the enemies deployment zone.

    JSA has cheap heavy infantry, but so does Vanilla Yu Jing and Imperial Service, and they have access to cheaper orders and smoke to support them.

    JSA has access to a very powerful Rui-Shi which can be buffed with hacking, but so does Imperial Service, they even get two, and cheaper.

    JSA has fast bikes, but so does Haqqislam and USARF and theirs are cheaper and come with smoke. Yojimbo deserves an honorable mention here, he is awesome, cheap and an auto-include in all my lists, even though he always dies.

    We don't have the best doctors, hackers or engineers, cheapest orders, best tag, cheapest access to smoke, best or even decent armor, high mobility, good rambo unit, high dodge, etc.

    Now all this might sound like a nerd rage rant, but I'm not saying that a faction has to be the best at any one thing in order to be viable at all, or that JSA is a bad faction in general, I'm just trying to identify what our particular strengths are.

    Perhaps you guys can give some examples?
     
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  2. gravitypool

    gravitypool Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    The day Haqqislam bikes had a hacker and a spitfire profile then I would consider they have better bikes. Smoke is for when you don't have a burst 4 weapon with you.

    Regarding your infiltrators, in this week tournament I lost a full health szalamandra to 2 monofilament crits from an oniwaban in a single hit. You might want to start there...

    No faction has it all, that's for sure. Many of Infinity factions are not about "I'm best at this" but instead about how you balance your tools.

    When I saw Starco for the first time I was mad that they got those sweet mixed Brigada and Riot links that nomad's don't have, but after playing against them I found their lists comparatively weak in options so now I don't really mind.

    It's not about having an OP troop. Is about how you sinergize each troop with the others you have been given.
     
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  3. gravitypool

    gravitypool Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Oh by the way there is a channel in youtube from a guy called VaulSC that gives some cool insight on armies on a troop by troop review. If I recall correctly he has a video for the japanese. You should definetely check it out.
     
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  4. kurrelgyre

    kurrelgyre Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Personally having played JSA Old and JSA New, I prefer JSA new. Not just from Aesthetics but from a lot of other views.
    1. Like all new resculpts, these look good.
    2. The army list allows some very good LI lists. you can go stealthy, Heavy Armour, or Scary with 2 tags, and a lot of enemies will have to wonder what you are throwing out there.
    3. Also that O-Yoroi with AP HMG can scare the Jotum.
    4. Mixed links, how many times has a 5 man link had it's teeth pulled when the 2 heavy weapons are nutralised, with JSA you can have a strong viable team, or the Karakuri Harris
    5. The army is flexible enough to throw a number of spanners in other armies works. But it does take practice
     
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  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    1) Dirt cheap HI links. Domaru start at 26 points and Haramaki at 23. You can play a full HI link for 115 points. Most other factions cost at least 140 or more for this, and some factions would pay 120 or so for a link of 1-wound LI.

    2) Oniwaban. TO CC24 MA4 with Superior Infiltration. JSA is probably the second best faction at CC on average (Steel Phalanx is number one, probably) but JSA does have pieces that can consistently beat most of ASS in CC. We're the only faction with MA5, btw.

    3) I would say that the combination of the two above factors makes JSA the best army in the game at trading 30 point pieces for 70+ point pieces. An Oniwaban can one-shot a Jotum. A Domaru can CC the shit out of basically anything (and E/M working the way it does means he's likely to just make it into a brick.)

    3) Our bikes are only impetuous, it makes a huge difference in playstyle versus Ariadna or Haaq bikes. JSA bikes are scalpels, not hammers.

    4) The biggest one: we're incredibly flexible now, especially for a sectorial. We've inherited Yu Jing flexibility a lot versus the old JSA. JSA can be shooty (Karakuri, Ryuken, Daiyokai, Kempeitai MSV2) or CC heavy. It can focus on being very swarmy (bikes, ryukens, keisotsu kempei link to fuel a Musashi Haris or even a rambo HI) or it can be full of heavy units (Domaru, Daiyokai, OYoroi). It can play a list of almost all markers, or it can play a list with none (which can work because your opponent will expect them! As a side note, putting 9 regular orders in group one that all start on the table can be pscyhologically frightening for your opponent.) You can play an elite haris (Karakuri, Daiyokai) and have tons of orders to fuel them.
     
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  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    All good so far. A few initial reactions:
    • JSA close combat creates some of the most lopsided face-to-face rolls in the game. Additionally, Saito and Oniwaban don't just have to be surgical... People think of these models as purely for hunting big game, but these guys are good against mid and low-cost models too. If your enemy comes at you with a Swiss Guard or a Riot Grrrl link team that are very hard to outshoot, our CC units will turn them into paste with ease. It isn't like they're bad at shooting either... A TO Camo SMG or Boarding Shotgun is a big threat, even at BS11.
    • Suppressive Fire. Ryuken-9 are one of the game's best Suppressive Fire platforms. They lock zones down hard with mines and accurate Suppressive Fire out to 24 inches, with enemies responding at -12.
    • Area Denial. This is actually something pretty new that JSA is now good at, and it pairs with the above point about Suppressive Fire. Cheap missiles, accessible Minelayer/Suppressive Fire platform, high-quality Blitzen/Flammenspeer/missile AROs on 2-wound troops, a linkable MSV2 Shock platform with good range, highly mobile Crazy Koala platform... JSA's quite good at stopping the enemy from going where they want to go, which is actually pretty interesting for a force primarily built around aggression.
    Bottom line:
    JSA are the kings of dense terrain. Noone can romp through a midfield like JSA, because we have a lot of models that are casually amazing at close-range combat without being very expensive. When attacking the midfield, JSA is obviously king... CC, infiltrating or biker attack pieces to exploit gaps, submachine guns, shotguns, mines, it's all there. On the defense, JSA is good in short range too. Good Suppressive Fire, cheap HI that are hard to take down, Koalas, Minelayer, these are all good things. JSA is deceptively resilient.

    That isn't to say it's a perfect Sectorial. I still have some problems with the design and costing of the HI, who I don't think are necessarily "cheap" once you give them real weapons and also pay for their CC ability. The cost of things like the Domaru Spitfire, Boarding Shotgun or Forward Observer make me cringe. But that doesn't stop them from being good.
     
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  7. Shatidox

    Shatidox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the examples and feedback guys :)
     
  8. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Saying CC is the focus doesn't make any more sense than hacking being the Nomads focus: in either case that would be terrible.
    The hard hitting, OHKO, and plentiful CC means that no matter what you face they need to be reserved because you will always have another way to efficiently kill it if they overextend their Charontid, Marut, etc. This ensures you will have the terms of attack even if they overpower you.
     
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  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    CC is much better in N3 than it used to be, but it's still very situational. I strongly recommend playing a couple games where you and your opponent take nothing but CC troops (well, no heavy weapons, anyway), and throw down.

    Saito is somewhat better at dealing with expensive 1W troops than an Oniwaban or Shinobu, and Saito can open a hole in a wall if he needs to.

    My usual DoTanko link is 145 points, since it's Oyama, a Domaru Spitfire, a Tanko ML, and two other Tanko (usually two Blitzen/SMGs).

    If I'm going to curbstomp people (and don't really need to do objectives), I like this list:
    [​IMG] Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    [​IMG] DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    [​IMG] TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    7 'Samurai'. :smiling_imp:
     
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  10. geo67

    geo67 Well-Known Member

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    I was gonna say, looks a lot like your 7 Samurai list.
     
  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    JSA is one of the sectorials where CC can actually be a deliberate part of your gameplan, rather than something that only occurs occasionally. But I agree that it isn't necessarily something you focus a strategy around.

    I'd probably expand the idea "CC is a JSA specialty" to "close-range combat is a JSA specialty." JSA is so damn good at close range, it's actually easy to become desensitized to it once you've been blazing away with submachine guns or casually eviscerating things with CCWs. Then you go back to another faction/sectorial, think "yeah, that suppressive Fire Hac Tao is easy meat for a TO Camo MA3 surprise attack" then realize you have nothing even remotely comparable for filling that role in your army.
     
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  12. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    Honestly just within the 24" band, the sectorial is gross. Our cheap and durable HI excel at close range thanks to boarding shotguns and Assault, chain rifles, EM grenades... and then add a Daiyokai with +3 out to 24" and burst 5, and suddenly it starts coming together that our best damage is done the closer we get. It makes JSA a bastard to try and root out of the midfield, if we can get dug in and force close range engagements.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I think the only other factions where you can consider CC as part of the regular game plan are Haqq and Shas. Well, Impersonation shenanigans for getting into CC.

    Yeah.

    The JSA owns the <24" range band.
     
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  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Steel Phalanx tho
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    double post
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    They have the CC skills, but how often do they actually deliberately try to get into CC, and how often do they actually get into CC?

    Oniwaban and Impersonators can start within one order of BtB.
     
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  17. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    The issue for Steel Phalanx is that their expensive and super buff CC heroes can get bisected by a 26 point Domaru. JSA is quasi-unique in how our CC specialists can trade up.
     
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  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    A 26 point Domaru can get eaten by a 5 point Shaolin monk (at basically even odds) or a 14 point Daturazi. Myrmidons even make that trade pretty well, and have smoke and ODD to get themselves into CC.
     
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  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    One of the advantages of Berserk on a two wound platform is that you can accept the hit in order to get rid of the offending opponent. It's risky vs DA or EXP opponents, but totally acceptable vs Shock or AP. Rather than trading hits with a 5 pointer, Domaru can just delete and move on.
     
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  20. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    This is true, but that shaolin is going to die to any stray hit, the Domaru can opt for a Berserk trade, and the monk doesn't get to advance using cover and with fireteams to pull him and his friends forward into range. Also, he can't assault 8 inches, use E/M grenades, or push buttons.

    Point being that the Domaru is a flexible HI fighter who just also happens to be a brutal CC threat, that is what is sort of unique about JSA - - our units can fight normally, but also have, on every single HI and most of our infiltrators, a backup ability to CC with the best of them. That's what I was trying to get at - our 26pt Domaru is a CC threat on the level of almost any other unit in the game while also being a decent HI.

    JSA isn't the only faction with high CC, we just have it saturated through more of our 'core' units. The Domaru isn't an extreme impetuous warband, he's a regular HI with a nice selection of fireteams and loadouts. Again, our threat level in the 0-16" range band is really nice - so our CC is more relevant in general because the army wants to get close, and then it has tools to shoot enemy CC masters with DTWs and Boarding Shotguns, chew them up with mines, and then take enemy shooting units and CC them.

    JSA has tools to make asymmetric matchups against most unit types - the main drawback is that we only really can do that within CQB ranges. Many of our core units shine at 16" or less.
     
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