Discussion in 'Druze Bayram Security' started by Vaulsc, Dec 27, 2017.
Freshly posted. I go through a lot of overview as well as specific DBS discussion.
I disagree with you regarding Scarface.
You dismissed him based on frenzy without noticing that the Cordelia Duo means he doesn’t have to worry about that.
He is a solid attack peice that drags a mimetism specialist along. I prefer the MK12 range band to the HMG one because it can handle built up terrain much more easily.
He definitely compares close enough to some of the HMG Yu Jing heavy infantry that are priced the same 57 point 1.5 swc area.
Cordelia was worth her 17 points before Getting Duo and is definitely worth it now.
So after seeing this video I felt compelled to quickly make my own review and see where we disagreed and examine those parts to find out why.
Authorized Bounty Hunters
Mostly unimpressive to me. You kind of got to get lucky on the booty chart to really have anything other than a kind of expensive cheerleader. I don't like troops that are this luck intensive. Sadly outside of the Fugazi this is tied for the cheapest cheerleader we have and pretty much no matter what you roll on Booty it will be better than the Brawlers in this role.
Love them and I can work with Parachutist. Cheap and very effective. However, we don't have the cheap orders needed to truly take advantage of them limiting us to really only being free to use one in a list.
As cheerleaders, they are not as good as ABH but they do have a few things going for them.
the MSV2 Multi Sniper is very very nice, if only you had more smoke to take advantage of it. The Haris option is interesting and puts them above the ABH if you don't mind the .5 SWC tax.
The Special fireteam really makes the Sniper shine. We have an LT option here as well.
The specialist options flat out suck but it is our only doctor... still 20 points for a wip 12 doctor probably means your just not going to take a doctor.
Solid hacker, interesting fireteam options, and pretty much an auto-include imo.
Is benched by the Brawler or Druze snipers
Druze Shock Team
The jury is still out. The different options this fireteam has in composition is amazing but all the good models are ARO models. I guess that works with there slow 4-2 speed but everything can't be an ARO peace, can it?
Its escape system is interesting but 2swc and 62 points are very hard to justify with Scarface as an option.
Scarface & Cordelia
So far your first of two real choices for good Rambo's and comes with your only good engineer.
57 points and 1.5 swc for a better spitfire and HRC just puts the Anaconda to shame.
The fact he is followed by a pocket healer for just 17 more points and factor in fireteam to keep frenzy in check and point for point he is the most cost to effect tag in the game I feel.
He is not impressive like many tags, no TO camo or fancy crap. He is just a straight in your face ass kicking and problem solver for a very respectable price.
17 points for a linked Missile Launcher that can take support programs is very nice as Unidrons have shown us.
Are interesting same price as you ABH troops but you get 6-4 move and are forward observers with Sensor. I guess ABH just got replaced as your cheerleaders. The Satlock spam might even make Smart Missiles usable... but I doubt it.
If you don't like Scarface then this is pretty much all you got for Rambo units.
6-4 move and it starts already part way up the board. Considering your likely running a 10 order list every order saved is important. Auxbots don't get the love they should as they really do punish bad play or break open good defensive play. Not as good as the ODD bot but then you don't have the ODD bot so I guess it is time for the Peacemaker to shine.
TR bot is a TR bot. I ike it.
Good unit but the irregular order hurts more here than in there home faction considering how order starved you are.
A very fun looking faction but I don't expect more than two competitive lists can be made from it and those are still likely to be eclipsed by other factions. This faction looks like it very much has its own flavor of playstyle that I highly approve of. It's also better to start underpowered and grow then to be needing nerfs so I do have to say that I approve of this faction and think CB did a good job here.
I think overall the video was a very fair analysis, but i think at points it was overly negative at times. I'll preface what I'm saying is I agree with your assessment that its not one of the strongest sectorials and its on the weaker side, but let me point out a few areas that I felt were a little too negative.
Scarface: I agree with T. Rex but also wanted to add that you're comparing him with something like the cutter or the sphinx which he's certainly not. He's more akin to a souped up gecko, which is something that I find is great for this faction because they're on the more elite side with fragile one wound troops, so you want to waste opponent's orders however you can. If he's being a roadblock the Heavy Rocket Launcher is a nice swap for the panzerfaust so you don't run out of threatening disposable AROs. He also has enough punch that during the active turn he can do some work for a very fair price.
You pointed out the negatives of the duo but none of the positives. He brings his own repair and specialist into midfield and if the duo is as dangerous as you say you can opt not to take it. Lastly, since he's so cheap he wont be in a 10 point list like a cutter or a sphinx, especially since he himself brings 2 orders. More like a 13-14 list, granted he's hard to slot at the same time as Saito
Peacemaker: when i think of peacemakers i dont think about the spitfire option. For spitfires i think bulleteers, which arent available to us. The heavy shotgun is cheaper and an excellent profile that utalizes the move and auxbot more heavily and helps us in our alpha strikes.
Kameel: EVO is useful beyond controlled jump because of overclock. When you look at the bots we can bring its a potent option.
I think you didn't give enough credit to the fact that our excellent repeater net lowers the oppertunity cost of guided and speculative fire, which as you said weren't to your playstyle, but this I find is the sectorial to limit the inefficiency of those options. Its not something you rely on as a go to, but you dont have to go to great lengths in your list to have those options available for those corner cases when it might just be your best shot or fit a group under the template
X visors help for suppressive fire tactics and makes your average troop just a little more potent in long range battles when your dedicated range pieces are across the board.
The weakness of the druze are threefold:
You pay a lot of points for "when **** hits the fan" options such as vetrans or more elite troops, which isnt as proactive and infinity is a largely proactive game
Slow without big rambo troops. This makes me more inclined to use something like scarface or the anaconda to get a more robust platform for a HMG or dual mk12s, and also makes me glad they're cheap. They're just closer to up-gunned heavy infantry.
I think overall it looks like you like pouring cheerleaders into a few strong attack options and you limitedly discussed the infowar and straight dislike the guided/speculative fire tactics, so i think this faction is out of your flavor so to speak. I'm not at all questioning the efficiency of that playstyle, but this faction just can't quite do that. This is a very toolboxy faction and it seems like you like specialized tools for the job and we cant compare to any faction as having the best tool for anywhere. What we do do is bring lots of tools and figure out which ones are best while we're on the battlefield
All that said, I'm welcome see just a few more options and some fixes to some of those weaknesses and despite them not having the same robustness as some other factions in the terms of truly intimidating options, at the end of the day half the game is how you play and beyond competitiveness, there's a fun factor. But overall fair analysis, if a bit harsh.
I'd like to comment that Authorized Bounty Hunters can be used as "massed ARO Cheerleader", 19 points and 0.5SWC for a Sniper is quite interesting in a SWC expensive faction, and the only problem is to roll a bike on the Booty table.
The Anaconda pays 2 SWC against Scarface's 1.5 because of Burst at long range. I agree that it feels overpriced, however, and the Anaconda is very overshadowed by those 12 points (which are also a second order and trailing healer). They should have either discounted the Anaconda to 1.5 SWC (in both profiles, since 2mk12 are better than a Spitfire) or buffing its main armor to AP (HMG or Spitfire). As it is, choosing between the two will be about the cost and the number of models in the list, or Scarface ftw.
Mind you, the Duo of Scarface and Cordelia requires careful use, since activating Cordelia to repair Scarface might generate extra AROs against the big guy.
Quick Rules interaction question.
If Scarface Dismounts & Cordelia moves up as part of their Duo would that prevent the enemy from getting ARO against his Tag?
From the Fireteam in the active turn page on the wiki:
If I misunderstood the question feel free to say so
My question does the TAG itself count as activating or is it only the pilot.
Should be the same answer for a biker dismounting their bike.
Can you ARO against the Bike itself or just the infantry model that got off of it?
I see now. Only the pilot, since you aren't using the order on the Tag. A common trick to push buttons is to have the TAG make cover for the pilot as he exits and completes objectives before hopping back in
From General Movement Rules:
I really think that the lack of a "Rambo" unit is severely overstated in this review. I rarely use them and find Rambo units to be far too vulnerable to being isolated or immobilized (this sectorial will make Achilles wet his pants with SSL2 hackers and a brutal repeater web), having a good Rambo doesn't make a good sectorial, it makes your opponents learn to ARO better. This isn't an army of cheap orders around one big dude to go beat face, this is a toolbox sectorial, much more like Onyx, not Steel Phalanx.
The humble Druze is pretty damn solid, but you dismiss the x-visor, veteran, and fatality as if they make little to no difference. The strength of the Druze is their proficiency at any range. Even the combi rifle is a damn effective weapon at 16-32", hitting on 12's with B3 and damage 14, not to mention that shock marksman rifle is hitting out to 40" without penalty. That x-visor on the E/M LGL is going to make spec fire absolutely horrendous, hitting on 9's up to 24", damage 14 against half BTS, isolating (and sometimes immobilizing) everything it hits... You will not make many friends with this weapon. Veteran L1 has saved my ass many times with Morats, even though it is situational, when you need it, it's HUGE. Obviously Morats have a lot more of it, but having a few regular orders to spend while you're in LOL, or better yet, in Retreat can be critical to pull a win out of defeat.
I'm surprised you dismissed the 17/0.5 point assault hacker on the Brawlers, it's hands down my favorite profile. It's the cheapest assault hacker in the game, just a bit less than the Barid, and is the cheapest specialist you can get in a Druze link. I see no reason to dismiss this profile.
I agree that the meta isn't going to freak out and totally table flip over Druze (thank god, this isn't 40k), but I think that you are dismissing many of their strengths. From your review, I'd venture to guess that you usually focus on Rambo lists? I can definitely see if you're used to playing that way, that you'd be disappointed by DBS.
Nice so Scarface could hop out behind the TAG & Cordelia could walk up and repair it.
Yes, but beware of TO infiltrators taking a shot at Joe when he jumps out of his Ramhorn.
@TheDiceAbide: I agree
The more I look at Druze... The more I like them.
Ugly heads... ugly ugly heads
I don’t like this sectorial from a gameplay perspective , but I love the flavor and they seem really fun and thematic.
I would agree that it is not a strong sectorial, and has limited options.
My favorite part of this sectorial are the brawlers. They just add a lot of utility and fill out the sectorial nicely.
After playing a few games with DBS, I definitely have to weigh in...I believe that they're a very good sectorial for their sheer versatility.
First off, there are only two primary profiles from which to form links for bonuses - Druze and Brawlers. This seems like a drawback compared to other sectorials, which have at least 4 units that can link (QK has Jannies, Ghulams, Kaplans, Odalisques, and Sekban. I might be forgetting someone). This may seem like a drawback, but it's actually a strength. DBS can form mixed links of different composition that can vary even within a single list. For example, I could see bringing a Druze/Clipper/Brawler/Gromoz core + a Druze Haris and subbing team members between the links as necessary. Same thing for Brawlers.
Second, DBS clicks all my boxes of (1) strong defensive link, (2) midfield infiltrating specialists, (3) heavy hitters, and (4) deep-field air drop units. They also boast a strong TAG option for the missions that require one.
Third, even their basic troops are exceptionally resilient to a wide range of threats (immune to hacking, isolation, good BTS, good ARM) while being threatening to all sorts of opponents (viral for low-BTS opponents, EM grenades for high tech baddies, MSV2 for camo, mimetism to stack mods). If you can mix and match well, you can force exceptionally good matchups.
Finally, their links have amazing synergy. The Druze + Brawler + Clipper link can contain a strong active turn Druze HMG, a Clipper for ARO, Gromoz for boosting the bot, Killer hacker for protecting Gromoz, and an Engineer for fixing the bot. On one hand, that synergy becomes a house of cards since removing a piece removes an integral component of the synergy. On the other hand, it's a formidable module that offers few good solutions.
DBS isn't a faction that is easy to play in the sense that there are clearly defined roles. On the other hand, it gives strong players the versatility to tailor their unit composition to address threats. Time will tell...I suspect the biggest drawback is the model line - a bunch of mercenary units didn't make it into this faction that would have had a place (McMurder, Yojimbo, mercs like that).
I'm glad mcmurrough, yuan yuan, etc don't have a place in DBS. We already have enough Sectorials whose cornerstone is delivering chain rifles with excellence. I'm happy to see a force with strength whose competitive viability require a little nuance and don't have an obvious Rambo (not necessary for competitive play.)
I have played a couple of games so far and the Druze playing almost exactly like my QK did. Its a MI tech faction. Half of my force is bots doing the work for me, distracting the enemy while my warm bodies push buttons and target real threats. I run an offensive Druze link of Arslan, gromoz, Clipper Smart missile, HMG, Killer Hacker. My defensive link is a Drawler Haris of Multisniper and AHD. With the bots on the field and Hunzukuts dropping a repeater or two, the Hackers pose a serious threat to enemy movement (lots of Pano/Yu Jing/Aleph in my meta). Against forces like Ariadna, I have repeater nets to start marking for the Clipper, or use a Hunzukut to surprise FO a target. Druze need synergy and require slightly out of the box thinking very much like Haqq. Arslan is a tool box defense character. Hes not an attacking piece more often than not. He takes car of your 0-16" bubble around your link between a DMG 14 MultiRifle, DMG 13 Viral Pistol, and a DMG14 LSG, hes going to give a lot of things a hard time and has an answer to it all. HI? DMG14 AP Shots. Ariadna Dogs? DMG13 Viral Pistol. Assualting WB troops? DMG14 Shock rounds.
I feel very little reason to run the TAG's in this faction, as they are on the lighter side and are not my go to units for Ramboing.
The weaknesses I see mostly fall into QK's as well. Small availability to no availability of smoke, and if you don't take a single unit, you have no way of seeing through enemy smoke, and they can be slow. I have not run the ABH's simply because I don't want to gamble on my abilities.
Druze Bayram Security
GROUP 1 9 1
ARSLAN Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Light Shotgun / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36)
DRUZE HMG, Chain-colt / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
DRUZE Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
VALERYA GROMOZ Hacker (Hacking Device UPGRADE: Expel) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
CLIPPER DRONBOT Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
BRAWLER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
BRAWLER Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
BRAWLER (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
BRAWLER Doctor (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
GROUP 2 3 1
PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
KAMEEL (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
6 SWC | 298 Points
Open in Infinity Army