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Varuna ORCs

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by RogueJello, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    I'm just going to start by saying I love Orcs. Love them. Makes me ill in the head I know, but I like the idea of a cheap basic beatstick that just shoots stuff, and no extra thrills. It's my first HI, and what got me into Infinity, and I'm so emotionally invested in Orcs I'm probably never going to change.

    So, let's talk about the Varuna Orcs. From what I can tell we have the same profile (which I know is not popular, so no salt please), but with added terrain and Stealth. This appears to be optional, with the original profiles appearing along side, 1 pt cheaper.

    So I like Orcs, and I like the new profiles but I don't completely understand why things have been done this way.

    1) I don't see what this needs to be restricted to Varuna, even the Haris profile appears in the other sectorials that can take Orcs.
    2) I don't understand the inclusion of Stealth. To me this is a nice thing, mostly for Hackers, and it makes sense when he's included with the Kamau, but otherwise? Not seeing why it was added.

    So does anybody else know why this was done? Almost seems like they should upgrade all the Orcs, or none of them, instead of putting in a ton of profiles that just say like the original flavor, but now with sprinkles! Not that I'm complaining, I like the sprinkles, they're just a bit surprising.
     
  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    ORCs are soldiers who use the ORC armor system. VIRD ORCs are Special Forces who use the ORC armor system. They have the gear in common, but Varuna ORCs receive a lot more additional training. That's what the Stealth and Terrain rules are meant to reflect. Since VIRD is themed as the Special Forces Sectorial for PanOceania, they get Special Forces ORCs.

    As for Stealth, it's not just thematic for VIRD. It carries a real benefit too. Varuna relies on ORCs to fill a role that isn't shared by any other PanO Sectorial. If you need to get a durable beatstick up the field for other Sectorials, you have a ton of options: Swiss, Aquila, Knights, Guarda, NWI ALEPH troops, etc. and all of these are good at their role. They tend to be non-Hackable, Camo State, or have some other advantage/special rule that helps them push up aggressively.

    VIRD doesn't have that kind of diversity when it comes to a durable, aggressive unit; they rely on the ORC far more than any other Sectorial. The only other choice is a TAG, usually for 2.5-3 times the cost of a Heavy Infantry. So it's helpful and appropriate that Varuna ORCs are better at getting around, and the Stealth and Terrain Rules help with that.
     
  3. Smiler

    Smiler Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I like that they got some flavourful sprinkles, the thing I think is weird is that they got the option to take "basic" Orcs too. It just feels weird from a background point of view.

    I'd like it if the Orcs in other sectorials got some sprinkles too. Jungle terrain for ASA Orcs?
     
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  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I'd be good with regular ORCs not being available to Varuna. But if we're talking theme, it's probably logical that Varuna as a planet has regular army wearing ORC armor (represented by basic ORCs) and Snake Eaters in ORC Armor (Varuna ORCs.) They're probably both active and available on the planet, but regular ORCs are a lot less prepared and trained for actual operations there. It does end up feeling pretty bloated, but thematically it's right on point.
     
  5. Smiler

    Smiler Well-Known Member

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    That's a fair point.
     
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  6. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I wish they had just left the "regular" ORCs at home, as they're non-linkable in most cases anyway (no Harris profile, special team with Fusils require Varuna Div.)

    Stealth and a terrain skill are pretty useful, especially for only a point. Although ORCs themselves are very narrow, they try and fill a broad role in Varuna, being the only Heavy Infantry. As Barakiel said, our other sectorials have various options and choices to choose from, often times being a better beat stick than an ORC. but thats okay. The ORC stat line or weapon options aren't what makes him good, it's what he can surround himself with.

    As a solo piece, the feuerbach and the HMG are not really great. But in a full link with Fusiliers and a Kamau they shine. I fell in love with this set up after the Acon changes and I'm excited to do it again in Varuna (my issue right now is 4 Fusiliers + 1 ORC isn't a valid link team). As an active turn piece I think the ORC HMG is better than the Kamau HMG in a full link. While mimetism tips the scales number wise in the Kamau's favor as a better gun fighter, I think the additional wound makes all the difference. Being able to take a lucky crit and not have to alter your plans is a pretty big bonus in my opinion. I also feel a little more confident leaving him to ARO after I've battered my opponent for a bit.

    I'm excited to try the Feuerbach, I don't think it will be an HMG replacement, but rather something else entirely. I think I will nestle it in a Haris along with a specialist and try it that way.
     
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  7. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    A fellow enjoyer of the basic HI I see.

    Honestly, it's the very first thing I noticed when Varuna stuff got mentioned.

    ''Oh cool, fish people... more AD, PanO can always use more AD... PanO getting a basic camo unit? Odd... AND WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE! A Feuerbach? On a very basic HI? Adding variety to it? Yay.''

    ( CB please do similar stuff with other ''basic'' HI like the Suryats, Brigadas or Shang Ji. A single interesting gun can be quite a staggering difference sometimes it feels. And it still keeps them basic and isn't a very radical change either! )
     
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  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I'm optimistic, but tentative. The Feuerbach is in a really tight spot for me. not as good at the active game as the HMG and not as reactive as some other weapons in the game. Originally the dossier showed ORCs with a Multi Sniper, which would have been a very interesting choice in my opinion. That way they can play the range game, which is something they can't do with the FB.

    at least its only 2 more points than the multi rifle.
     
  9. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    It's a weird gun, I can agree... but hey, it seems cool enough at least so far. And it has the same ''Good luck comfortably inserting me into your carry case'' pose as the Hsien to boot.
     
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  10. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    The Fuerbach's all about versatility, with everything that entails. While it's not quite as good as a MULTI Sniper outside of 32 inches, it's still exceptionally good at that range, especially with a linked ORC's BS behind it. So you certainly can use it to outrange HMGs and similar weapons. And as far as hitting power, being able to work in some armor-cracking or EXP options into your VIRD can be really helpful when you need to put down something big. HMGs don't always do it, we don't have CC, and our E/M and Hacking are limited. You can get dirty with SMGs and shotguns up close, or hope a Burst 2 missile does the job, but the Fuerbach's really nice in that kind of situation.
     
  11. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with your assertion that the Orc stat line is not good. He has just about everything you'd want, all thriller, and no filler. BS14 is elite in a game where most HI top out at 13, ARM4 is about as good as it gets without serious points, and he has the most important stat, low points. About the only thing cheaper is an HI with a frenzy discount, but I really think that's a problem with the Frenzy discount being too high.

    I also disagree that the HMG, which is one of the best offensive weapons in the game, is not great on a solo Orc. Between B4 and BS14 he can usually bully anything during active turn, and cannot be shut out by the -12 max mod of a surprise attacking TO Camo unit.

    I'm not so sure about the Feuerbach. I tend to lean towards TO:Camo MSR for ARO duty, and he's clearly outshone by the Helot in this case. For that matter the Croc Man MSR is an option. It's true he's 6 pts more expensive than my go to, the Hexas, but he's also got an X-Visor which is situationally useful, and Infiltration which means he can get into more interesting positions.
     
  12. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    The "not good" part of the ORC stat line lies between BS and WIP.
    That PH 14 on a BS 14 model with exactly no grenades whatsoever just irks, especially now the KotHS got a PH drop.
    (give me PH 13 and a 2 point across the board discount!.. kidding, I'll happily use ORCs in VIRD, now just let me form a special Haris with 2 Bolts in NCA...)
     
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  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I was really hoping Patsy would get an offensive grenade type, but at least Nimbus Plus does mean that high PH serves a purpose.

    For general combat, asking to pay for PH14 is a lot, but there are definitely times when a 70% chance to pass a Dodge with ARM4 and 2 Wounds might be a life saver. Especially since the ORC is our go-to choice for standing in zones or objective rooms that no other Snake Eater wants to stand in, being able to duck that linked Chain Rifle might win you a mission.
     
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  14. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    reread what I wrote – I don't think the stat line is bad at all. it just isn't what makes him good. but as far as points go, I wouldn't exactly call the ORC cheap per say...

    It's tough to look at things like this because they're all so situationally dependent. I can only analyze what I've seen in my local meta and what I've experienced playing in the few cross state tournaments I've played in.
    That being said, we have to anticipate what opponents will be using as ARO pieces, or what will be forward up the board enough to be shot by our lone HMG wielder. as far as ARO goes we have the usual: Linked missile/sniper, TO/ODD/Camo/mimetism trooper, and the standard TR remote. unfortunately, the ORC is shooting at worse odds than something like the Kamau HMG pretty much every time. Furthermore, I would also prefer a lone trooper to be 28/1 versus 45/2 in case they get stranded and I don't have the orders to bring them back or they find themselves in a dangerous spot.

    I can't say I'm a fan of the croc MSR. or any infiltrator sniper for that matter. they're usually crazy expensive for skills you don't really need. I do like the hexa though. I also wouldn't think of the helots as fulfilling the same role as the hexa. for me, the helots will be moving forward with their irregular order every turn they're alive, putting more and more pressure on the opponent as the game goes on. something I can't say I would do for the hexa.

    I think at this point with a list I've just written, I'm going to try the Feuerbach as a solo piece. a possible data tracker/xenotech caretaker/ ect. I can see him being oppressive later in the game after opponents' heavy hitters or supremacy pieces die. He is also considerably easier to maneuver and flank opponents if he's by himself and not having to tag an entire link around with him.
     
  15. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    you guys are something else. Go over to the Morat thread and tell them HI being PH 14 is a bad thing. the kicker is Suryat's don't have grenades either.
     
  16. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Is the Orc at worse odds?
    The Kamau is not better than the Orc vs a Chasseur
    The Kamau is not better than the Orc vs a Moira
    The Kamau is not better than the Orc vs a Linked Zhanshi Missile Launcher
    The Kamau is not better than the Orc vs a TR Rem

    Now most of these are close, within 5-10% but the Kamau is an elite unit on it's own with BS13. But a single failure is far more devastating for the Kamau than for the Orc, with maybe the exception of the TR Rem or Missile Launcher. Better to have a second wound on a model acting alone, and not need a doctor at all.

    In most cases I would agree with you, but in this case the Crocman is the ONLY TO:Camo MSR option. Outside of VIRD I agree, take the Hexas, but inside? If you want to do Hidden Deployment sniper the Crocman is not terrible, and the only points that seem potentially wasted are the mines. So I think he's got a solid niche. The Infiltration is also going to allow you to put him in some unexpected places, and X-Visor means that being futher up field isn't a huge detriment.
     
    #16 RogueJello, Nov 30, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Hmm? I just said it's a good thing. Dodging's really helpful on the troop profile that VIRD counts for getting close and being durable.

    I agree with @RogueJello about the Croc Sniper too. I'm looking at it more and more.
     
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  18. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    So from my first game with VIRD so far, I have noticed a distinct lack in my list of “things that can stand in the Armory and not die to an LFT”.

    I threw a Patsy Haris of Patsy Kamau HMG and Kamau Hacker in there as well as a Jammer ZC and they all died. Patsy was the last to go and took a lot of Wildcats with her, but having an Orc BSG in there instead of the Kamau Hacker would have been very very nice.

    In fact, that may be in my next iteration of the list for objective rooms.
     
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  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Yeah, it's definitely an issue to work on. I had to go first in Transmission Matrix featuring an objective room for the center antennae, and that was a bloodbath. Doubly bad because Heavy Infantry are such a liability in that mission.
     
  20. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Erm, the Kamau is actually better when you use the HMG rather than a combi...
     
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