ISS has a few problems at the moment that really hold it back, but I've got two I want to look at right now, and would likely help solve or mitigate many of the other issues we have. First problem, our smoke access was absolutely gutted. For a door-kicking breach-and-clear sectorial meant to be as aggressive as ISS, smoke was an important tool for moving around the table and setting up kill zones. The improvements to MSV1 offered new and well justified nerfs to smoker's presence, but the removal of the smoke launcher's positive range band was a step too far for our uses. Celestial Guard smoke was always mediocre compared to other factions' access, but was a concession to be made for our strong synergy and extreme order efficiency, the latter of which is also now lost, the former of which is under a lot of stress when actually trying to build a list. Now, in order to run smoke in even a remotely viable context, you absolutely must have your CG launcher in a core, and even that isn't as reliable as before. This can be problematic as ISS is a sectorial now heavily strained for list design space as it is. Smoke got weaker, so why do we need it to be more restricted as well, on top of having our body count limited? Our next issue is the Crane. More specifically, the multi rifle sensor variant. There's a lot of overlap between him and Adil's heavy armored profile, and neither really comes out looking great. I'll leave my thoughts on Adil for the other thread, what I want to focus on here is the regular Crane. We've got a brawler bully that clearly looks like he was built to push forward into the midfield and start messing things up. Unfortunately, he's also expensive and has some difficulty justifying that cost because getting there is work and he doesn't bring a lot to actually help with the actual getting there process. He also skipped cardio day, which doesn't help either. The potential solution? Enter: VapeCrane We give our MR Crane smoke grenades. Also, up the Crane's MOV to 6-2, because it's silly that his more efficient contemporaries get it while he doesn't. This does a few things. First and foremost, it gives us a reliable, if expensive, tool to cover our smoke gap that the edition transition left behind. Attached to 6-2 MOV, it would also make the MR Crane a strong midfield supporter both with or without a fireteam (which could also make him useful for vanilla, cool). It also turns him into a great piece of glue for ISS fireteam composition. Hsien/Zhanying, Devakini, Bao, Su Jian and Wu Ming would all love this guy in their crew, and it helps to close a lot of gaps in ISS design space. While having smoke accessible to a fireteam with MSV could potentially be quite powerful, it doesn't come without cost. Remember that the Crane is still 46 points and unlike most other smokers he doesn't get a free impetuous order to do it, either. Pairing a Hsien and Crane together in a haris is a lot of points. Thoughts? I feel the Crane hasn't made a flawless landing in N4, and think this would definitely help him and ISS out a lot. I'd also like to see AP ammo on the spitfire profile to keep up with the N4 Arms race, but that comes secondary to a greater issue in ISS' design.
Of course the 6-2 move would make him better, however I don't see them changing anything soon, if ever. We need to work with what we have. I think I'm one the few who thinks we haven't lost much. I never relied on the Kuang Shi for example. Also, the smoke launcher is the same for everyone, so it kinda evens out. I think gaining wildcard can make some fun teams. The Crane is the best hacker in the sectoral with WIP14 and BTS6. Even better when you add a Tinbot to him. WÚ MÍNG Boarding Shotgun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) ZHÀNYING Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 26) ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 19) 2 SWC | 147 Points This could be a fun, if expensive team of go getters. I'd do the Tinbot Hsien but I love the HMG too much. HSIEN Heavy Machine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 55) CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23) 2 SWC | 124 Points Seek and destroy BÀO TROOP Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) BÀO TROOP Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22) CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) 0.5 SWC | 92 Points Open in Infinity Army CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33) DAKINI Tacbot (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 15) 1.5 SWC | 94 Points
I think this would add utility to that specific profile, but wouldn't actually fix anything about the sectorial. There will be no lack of regular smoke in this sectorial and it doesn't really fix the problems it has in getting from point A to point B without being gunned down due to an almost JSA level lack of long range guns and a SWF level lack of skirmishers. If smoke is the way to go, then for the second-highest ranked combat trooper in the Empire, there should be Eclipse grenades to scrounge; this has two effects and the first and most obvious is to re-equip the sectorial with a way to combat BKM snipers without relying on coordinated order of the cheapest SWC weapons accessible, while the other effect is that it prevents Crane+Hsien combo. Yes, that's a 100+ point combo that exists already with Ghulam+Khawarij for a fraction of the points, but still.
Corvus really doesn’t want us to play our older armies in Viable Meta games, that doesn’t sell the models they want to sell, and so, Haqqislam is gonna keep getting amazing rules and combos. Because Belli is too stubborn to accept that western society gamers don’t want to play a Middle Eastern Themed force in a Japanese Anime Aesthetic Inspired Sci Fi Game.
There's plenty of newer armies that aren't great either. And plenty of dusty old stuff that's pretty great. Just not ISS atm. Hassassins aren't all that great next to CA, Aleph and Vanilla Nomads... Given that CB needs a business model and adding new Sectorials/adding NA2 armies can't last forever... new editions are usually the time where everything gets a step by step overhaul. Best guess is everything not designed since Uprising is up for a rework in N4 at some point in the next couple years one after another. Hassassins and Corregidor are examples for the first wave of full scale N4 reworks, not preferential treatment.
Honestly, why do I feel like ISS has been discontinued like MRRF but hasn't been done so officially because there's no sectorial to replace it yet? The whole sectorial feels like it's been missing love and ideas for a few years now and it didn't get better with N4. The core idea it got was "more SWC availability" but they forgot to add good ways to dump that SWC. (Also, they are so close to solving Pheasants and Bao but they removed Core from them...)
I feel the same Mahta, the only real reason why it isn’t officially is because it got a lot of models b4 and after invincibles hit. AFAIK: Female Kan Ren is post-uprising, every ninja that get’s re-sculpted, now we have OSS devas and Dakinis, also Garudas were getting an overhaul, we got the new CG box kinda recently too. So production wise ISS is in that weird place where it’s an old army with beautiful new models. @Teslarod if Haqqislam doesn’t get preferential treatment, explain to me why impersonation costs less than infiltration yet does the thing 6 times better? Also, sure Ghazi got nerfed but, have you seen ava Total of 6 point Infiltrating Daylami?
What's this sudden crazyness about Haqqislam (of all the factions you could talk about) being preferred? I don't remember the N3 stats but I highly doubt they were a top army even with that OP Impersonation and those OBVIOUSLY BROKEN Daylami.
@Benkei have you taken a look at Haqqislam Vanilla? They have everything every other faction has, but cheaper and better, it’s actually pretty obnoxious, also the only faction that can reliably heal their people, specialists out the ass, Impersonators galore (3 in Vanilla lists), murderous Warbands, some of the best Hacking in the goddamn game, you name it, they have it but 50 times better. Visors? You bet your fucking tits When the Spec Ops got reworked which Spec Ops could hide a fucking JAMMER in a 5 man Link? haqqislam. The only thing why no one plays these guys for real is because all the models are from the fucking stone age.
Okay, that's dandy and all, but this is a thread about how the Crane would be improved by giving him smoke. On topic, I'd be on board with the previously suggested eclipse smoke. It has its trade offs in either direction. Except it's not the same for everyone, since most other factions that utilize smoke have it coming from hand-tossed grenades on high PH Impetuous troopers, who are much more reliable in that regard, and usually come with impetuous orders to put it down for free. Most of the fireteams you've listed are very expensive for what they do and many of them demand a heavy commitment to pushing your models far up the table, which would be a lot more viable with something like reliable smoke access.
It is a thread about how Crane could be improved by giving him smoke, which immediately takes us to the state of the army, and ADIL MEHMUT (an obviously Haqqi character). The Smoke on the crane sounds amazing don’t get me wrong, but what the crane truly needs is a Long Range Gun like an HMG or Rocket Launcher or Sensor on his Spitfire profile, X-Visor can go away considering that X-Visor was added in a time where Marksman Rifles weren’t a Thing and it’s obvious that’s what it is there for, make the multi rifle not trash on an expensive unit, just give him the Marksman Rifle, if any troop’s kit is tailor made to have one of those it’s this guy. The other uses it has seem like Happy accidents. On a Related note: Give Bao (counts as a Zhanying or Celestial Guard for fireteam composition) status, this will immediately improve Crane’s performance with or without the new VaperDevice, allowing you to have a your crane in a Fireteam that can deliver him to an objective or defend alongside him.
Giving the Crane an HMG or HRL wouldn't help him in his role at all. A Hsien is already a much better HMG platform, and the Wu Ming already does both jobs just as well for cheaper. The Crane wants to push up the table and bully people, he pays out the ass for a ridiculously strong close quarters kit that he has problems actually leveraging, so the key is in making that viable by giving him better tools to get there. Also, Adil is not a Haq character. He doesn't show up in any Haq factions. Just because he's a Uygher doesn't make him any less Yu Jing, and considering the state of things going on with the marginalization and genocide of Uyghers in China in real life at the moment, that's a pretty damned hateful association to make. If anything, Adil being Yu Jing's current posterboy probably has lot to do with making a point about that in the first place.
I disagree, Giving the Crane a longe range weapon will actually help him an the fireteams he brings a lot more, the Crane with an HMG linked with 4 CGs (as used to be the case) has a reliable way to push out himself and the fireteam (a CG with a MSR won’t afaik) and when he inevitably finds himself in the mid field, holding with his fireteam his CQC kit will be available to cover the 0-8” rangeband with his double nanos and CC weaponry. What is the Crane perfect at? I don’t believe the crane to be the best Pointman for a Fireteam quite underwhelming actually. What he is really good at is at anti-camo and anti-skirmish, with his sensor and double nanopulsers, that is his intended role according to his attributes and skills. Indeed Giving him Smoke will make him even better in this regard (in fact would make him quite the hard Counter to skirmishers). But the Long Range weaponry on this guy would allow a lot more flexibility for ISS as a whole as well as making him a side-option to the Hsien, and a “I wish to not play wu ming every game with ISS” option. Having Smoke Access will allow you to not bring the CG smoke grenade launcher, and if it’s a thrown grenade he’s be as good as a Shaolin at doing so. That’s why I don’t find it as important for the Vape Crane to get a Vape but a long weapon, since in both armies he’s in there is already a suitable alternative for smoke, getting more smoke would be welcome though. At the very least, something that would really, really help this lad, is to drop the multi rifle and XVisor to get a Marksman Rifle (AP at least).
Your first example really just sounds like a worse version of the Hsien with no MSV and a bunch of wasteful stuff tacked on. ISS doesn't need a side option to the Hsien, because the Hsien is already the freaking Hsien. Those twin nanopulsers aren't going to scare anyone without a gun with a halfway usable rangeband up close to force a bad ARO. At that point, it becomes a decentivizing tool, like the Hsien's own nanopulser. Main difference being that the Hsien is a better gunfighter. The only thing an HMG Crane would bring to the table with its wildly unfocused loadout would be a cheap 5 man core with a Kuang Shi link. But even if you are going for the budget core, the X-visor spitfire already covers those bands decently well with everything else you're getting, and isn't castrated up close. If you don't want to use a Hsien or Wu Ming, then you really don't need an HMG, because the Crane offers nothing over them in that role other than an overinflated price tag. The entire reason I'm suggesting smoke on the Crane is because ISS' smoke access got so shafted. It is not a reliable tool anymore, and ISS needs smoke more than any other part of Yu Jing because they don't get the gimmicks that others can rely on. Giving the Crane a Marksman Rifle is just another case of him being outdone by the Hsien. Just take a Hsien already.
Watching people complain about shooting in an army with the Hsien and no order-economy problems is... interesting. ISS has problems, but I think they're peripheral to the ones brought up in this thread, and have mostly to do with the roles played by the Bao, Pheasant, and Crane. And that doesn't seem to be a new problem, it's a pretty old one. B2 on 14s (linked CG) is still pretty darn reliable? That's in the upper 80%s for landing smoke. (Edit: that's a 91% chance per order to land smoke.) And the zero band is longer now too. The only place it really is worse is in trying to land it via Spec Fire and that seems rightfully so now that it goes to 24 inches on a 0? Tohaa and CA also have impersonators, and yes, the mechanic is problematic, especially when compared to the cost. The cheap Daylami are actually now than they were in N3 because you can't take a group 2 of 4 Daylami and 4 Ghazi now without gimping your group 1. What I feel like I have seen so far in N4 (and others can jump in and correct me if their experience is different) is that irregular/impetuous warbands are seeing the table maybe half as much, and super cheap disposable irregular orders are also getting taken less. Haaq altogether is looking good (and Hassassins is looking pretty darn good!), but I don't think they come close to CA/Aleph/Nomads in terms of being spoiled by CB in N4.
The hell are you talking about man? Okay a picture is emerging. Smoke on Crane would be rad. Does anyone else have both wildcard and smoke?
Nomads has a few. Lupe is a true wildcard in Corrigedor, and Perseus in Tunguska counts as a Securitate or Holloman, and has is own unique fireteam in addition. Hassassin has Husam Yasbir (who can also pair up with an MSV2 character, who themselves is also a wildcard that can join up with other smoke options too). Morats have Treitak Anyat, who isn't a true wildcard but can join up with most fireteams. So this isn't an unheard of combination, even with MSV2 in links, to which other factions even get cores. So what I'm suggesting isn't unprecedented in N4, it's pretty reasonable compared to what some other factions get, even conservative considering the frustrations I've found with ISS list building and playstyle at the moment.
This thread is an absolutely wild ride I don't want to hop in, but I can't let you guys badmouth the crane agent any longer. While the crane himself is expensive, the mean to get him where it needs to isn't. ISS has access to cheap orders and cheap REM gunner (rui-shi, dakini) to kill anything that needs to be killed, and once the dust has settled THEN you send in the crane and his goons. He's a midfield brawler that you can easily set up as a one eye king in the land of the blind. Well, at least that was easy in N3, I still need to test and see how much of a liability the EVO bot is for ISS in N4, but a garuda/solo hsien/su-jian will work just fine if the EVO is too bad. The good news is, if you really want to get him there earlier, just stick him in a hsien/dakini haris and call it a day. Yay, N4! Which means you're pretty much locked into playing the CG or kuang-shi core if you want reliable smoke. And unfortunately the wu-ming core is our only B5 BS16 HMG, and that's the kind of firepower we could really use to handle atlanta or grenzer/bolts sniper in core (and to stay on topic, it's probably one of the biggest challenge for ISS these days and giving regular smoke to the crane won't do shit to fix that). ISS has been perfecly functionnal and repleted with brand news sculpts since HSN3, there was no love needed really. Now it needs some (or at least a good look at) because a lot of changes in N4 directly affect its gameplay. It was, IMO, one of the best designed sectorial in N3.
I do think Cranes are one of the things that work well in ISS in the N4 setting; but at the same time they are premium priced and Cranes will be in very direct competition with Adil for the one maaayyybeeee two you'll bring in a list, so I don't think there's room for both Adil and the plain Cranes. Crane Hacker (particularly if the Stealth shenaniganery from N3 is not revoked for N4) and the Spitfire Crane are still highly relevant, but it's a bit like the Toni situation with Adil, except Crane Adil isn't a Crane++ like Toni was a Tik++. Now, that said, I almost choked a bit when I read that ISS was the best designed sectorial in N3. I know that doesn't mean "best and strongest" faction, but I'd still argue that JSA was better before they turned fascists and after the design got even better, and while O-12 isn't a sectorial it certainly was small enough considering the bloat that was/is ISS, featuring with the least internal competition and most complete design I've seen in a game's faction release ever. Even Dahshat I'd probably rank higher in terms of faction design, say what you will about the power spike and fluff. Buuuut... I've long been critical about ISS design and how it seems to be "just throw some random mercs at this police force that we spent years designing and see if they stick". Bottom line is, I think, that ISS has an over-reliance on the Celestial Guard Monitor and very little means of dealing with the new high-ARM meta when combined with the still persistent overly-competent MSV2 AROs meta - and the Crane isn't at fault here.
