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Vanilla CA post Daedalus' Fall

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Erbent, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. Erbent

    Erbent Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, a bit of context: I've been playing infiinity and vanilla CA from about half a yar after the release of N3 and up to about last summer, at which point I dropped off from the game for various reasons, selling out almost all of my CA minis. Then I came back to plying infinity about at a november of 2018, this time picking up all new and exciting OSS sectorial, and also playd a little bit of vanilla Aleph, but all the fresh and new additions from Daedalus' Fall sparked my interest in CA again, so here I am, wondering If I should go back to CA.

    There's a whole lot of things and then some added since I dropped out of CA, so I'm going to write somewhat of a summary of my impressinos, and the main point of this thread is to have a discussion about general state of Vanilla CA post latest update, specific units, army lists and anything related to the update and vanilla CA, and also what challenges the other factions can pose to us with their shiney new toys.

    Firstly - general feel of list building I get from all this - using all avilable SWC and taking enough of quality units and orders is even harder than before.

    Secondly, I'd like to share my impressions of new units:

    1)Libertos, they're just so good just on their own, putting out 1 to 2 camo markers at ridiculously low price of 8/10 points is just a godsend with how much our usual camo units cost, and this little angry fishman even has dogged to be as much of a nuisance to remove as possible, I feel like the vanilla CA gains by far the most from Liberto compared to all other factions, Aleph feels like that too, but their infiltrators are less squishy for not too much more or even the same cost, and I'd gladly pay 1 SWC to hide my Shrouded FOs or the likes of it, hope we see a non-limited edition model soon.

    2)Aida Swanson - honestly I'm not impressed with her, a lot of good close range gear, but there's not really any good means of getting to close range engagements for her. Viral mines are sure a nise thing to counter various doggos from ariadna, but without minelayer it's just too much points for not a lot of benefits.

    3) Hasht was updated in 3d offensive if I recall correctly, he's a very solid agressive specialist to push onto objectives, compared to his older incarnation he's just so much better with shock immunity and increased mobility, though less armoured than before, I more than welcome that change. The only thing that worries me is a heavy increase in really strong aro pices across the board, most extreme of which is a kamau sniper, but I'll get back to that boogeyman later.

    4)Fatality L2 Sogorat might not be a top-tier attacker or aro unit, but that addition made me reconsider trying him out, seems like a great choice to counter HI and TAGs, but my meta is quite heavy on "all the orders" type of lists, so there's not much targets for Sogorat to deal with, still a cool new thing to try out though!

    5)Oznat stalker unit is just so cool and interresting, yet kind of pricey. Sensor on a non-hackable close quarters combat oriented unit is great, she throws smoke grenades almost as good as a Daturazi, brings along a friendly little pet to chain rifle all those pesky oniwabans who want to ruin your day, and being able to use a sensor without spending regular orders to do so is just great, I'm concernd about her cost being kind of high, but she sure brings a lot of utility to the table.

    6)Raicho update is nice, I want to try it out sometime, though it still feels a bit too pricey.

    I thik that's just about all the notable changes to CA from 3d Offensive, now it's time for the Daedalus' Fall:

    (waterfalls of salt incoming)

    1)Gwailos. I want that, give it to me. I. WANT. THAT. seriosly, why can't we have that beauty of a unit in vanilla CA? Why, CB, WHYYYYY? Like, seriously, CA always was a little lacking for me in a non-buff HI department, Suryats ar functional, but kinda meh, Sogorats are cool and all but neither here nor there, and all the EI aspects are about the cost of a TAG. Sure, we have an Overdron with double HRL and that same albedo and we can even fix him up back to full 3 STR and all, but that's 57 points, and that's a whole Daturazi of a difference with Gwailo HRl. Oh, and that Shasnasty comes with a MSV2, like seriously, I've been waiting for some internally competetive ARO oriented HI, like something with MSV2 and some sort of sniper rifle, and Gwailo is almost a perfect variation on that, but nooo, that should be only for Shasvastii. Okay, okay, I'm just a little bit (very much) salty about not getting Gwailos for vanilla, guess Charontid HMG gonna have to live the dream of reactive MSV HI.

    2)Sheskiin. finally we don't have to lose a 1/6th of our list to a mine/critical hit from shock, that's great. Wait-wait-wait, Sheskiin gets WHAT? Sure, I love the smell of crits in the morning. IMO though statistically Fatality L2 is a great boost to damage output, it is still not as bad and CB wanting to see the world burn level of brokenness, though really-really good even without fireteam bonuses. I am 100% sure I'm gonna play Sheskiin at least semi-regullarly, still have to fit all the things in just 300 points.

    3)Jayth Cutthroats - just a whole bunch of various cool stuff where do I get more points again? The Spitfire loadout seems like a good alternative to a Noctifer, and because that particular choice is just about always a Missile Launcher there isn't much choice here, at least for me. Oh, and combining MSV1 with ODD is great, E/M grenades and a decent CC capability is just a cherry on top. Specialist operative seems too pricey for me, but the other two close qurters variants are very interresting, close range nastyness evrywhere. And to top it all off - shock immuntiy, so that our lovely Dr.worm seems more interresting to me now. (For the most part I only used a shotgun Kurgat to repair stuff, because all the things I took with wounds either had NWI/Dogged or just not worth the orders to be healed)

    4)Greif Operators. Choices are good, not sure if those guys are.Forward deployment loadouts ar allright, but Shas options for that are kinda better, and inferior impersonation is a nice way to fill up SWC on the cheap and they can be a good distraction or can kill off some cheerleaders not much worse than speculo, and are even better against camo and all that, also nice for more of reliable points in the enemy half of the table for area control missions. So that's a fine addition I guess.

    5)Speculos. I. WANT. THAT. again a Shasvastii-exclusive profile that would be such an awesome and all-round great addition to vanilla CA, since I usually struggle to get all I want in a list and have all of SWC's used up, but no, that's only for shas people, at least CB did'nt go full on uprising and did not remove all the Shas, okay then. Also as a side note, I generelly have the worst luck with speculo, dying to knives in cc from fusiliers and all that, so mainly Speculos are more of a distraction carnifex in my book.

    6)Seed-soldiers, kinda fun, I only wish CB would let them be an S2 camo marker so that mindgames would be avilable, but that's fine. kinda nice way to put a cheap specialist closer to objectives or set up a midfield LGL specultaives, but in generel I'm not thrilled to use those, but the dossier looked cool.

    7)Nox - they're fine, I guess. Honestly I'm really tired of having all our line infantry to have such a high "It's CA" tax on them, like, I would virtually never take any of our line infantry as a base profile, I'd firstly have to take 4 Daturazi, then 2 Krakots, and only then I'd consider all the other. Oh, and also there are Imetrons, R-drones and Ikadrones. But we have some interresting loadouts here still. Hacker is an interresting alternative to a Vanguard, though PH12 and Veteran L1 is better than Shas/Stealth/Bioimmunity and a zapper for a hacker to sit at home and buff the Q-drone. Finally, the not really hidden gem of the Noxes - a LGL with normal and nimbus+ ammo is soo toolboxy, just not reliable enough for me to be 100% sure I want to take it. Like, throwing down a Nimbus+ zone and ruining the day of linked aro threats or giving out -6 to dodge templates is great, but with only bs 14 in his good range it might be too order intensive to use effectively. Stlii fun though.

    8)Haiduks. Cheap as chips, rocking an effectively AP+Shock marksman rifle AND MSV2 AND Sapper? Wtih all the Daturazi running around throwing smoke everywher like madmen? Sign me up! and again, CB doesn't want us to have a good MSV2 ARO's in vanilla CA it seems. Though we have AVA2 Yaogats with Pancerfausts, that's nice enough I guess. Also we finally get some good units in low twenties points cost, yay.

    9)Cadmus. Sure, they fixed that annoyingle cluncky seed rule. wait, what is that? a decoy, like those fishmen in pano? Waaait, how you say it works with AD? Omg, I guess. So, if I get it correctly: I can put down a decoy marker to drop in the Cadmus, then roll to chek if t succeds, then apply dispersion if needd and THEN place remaingn decoys, putting the real Cadmus effectively anywhere I wnat it to land within 16" of the final place of the first decoy? Now that's SWEET. Chest mines you say? more like REMOVE KAMAU I think. Seriously, jst put a decoy so that you would be able to place the real one near enough to the desireable target no matter the dispersion, then proceed to Chest mine it for 1-2 orders, then If that doesn't work just shoot them with a shotgun or something. Definetly more than great update for Cadmus.

    10)Caliban. Pricey, kind of, not really? we get CoC to not suffer the horrendous WIP 11 of Xenotech on some missions, and can have les sof a fear of E/M with our Mnemonica units, that's good. Aslo finally it opens up a lot of agressive Lt options, thats sweet. also FDL2 camo that cand dodge 4 inches and eat off some wound from people? Sure, I'll take it. Yet another MSV1 Spitfire, though at 40 points it's kinda getting a bit too expensve. midfield camo'ed engineer is cool, also catching people off guard with large teardrop template from camo should be fun.

    11)Blah-blah noctifers still have longer name Mentors - Counterintelligence is sweet, it is just kinda obnoxious when you go full on order spam, but it is great that it opens up an option to go semi-elite with 12-13 orders or just taking something like an Imetron and 4 Taighas in your second group. Ambush camo is nice, though on a hacker it fights the purpose of a basic hacking device, Shock marksman rifle is good for late-game attack runs and shotgun is just cheap counterintel and fills up your DZ with camo, also a good safe Lt option, though I think for CA an EI Aspect or something else with CoC is more interresting option, and ouronly NCO option isn't really good for vanilla.

    12)Victor Messer. Kinda cool, ups our hacking game even more than it already was with Bt&KISS and Kerrnau, also kind of Hasht-light and a good close range toolbox, don't really like the model, but he's definetly worth trying out.

    13)Skiavoros - SHAME on CB, I thought we'd finally have all EI aspect profiles avlable to as as Lt's, but I guess we need to generate a lot more active demand for that to happen. Like seriously, I don't belive that having avilable Skiavoro HD+ or Spitfire as Lt or even Anathematics Spitfire or Sepsitoe would be so game breaking that we shouldn't get it.

    14)Ko-Dali. more of a quality of life, Bioimmunity is nice, and we get yet another FDL2 option, with MIMETISM and multi rifle? CB, don'ts stop, I can't hold all these options, that's just so great! definetly table-depenant and requires some finess to get going, but with good smoke support and a suiting table setup she can just get to those juvy 3 wounds by claring out the midfield and then peoceed do kill just about, I don't know, how about EVERYTHING? Oh, and she has 4-4 MOV now, great!

    15)Shrouded. so, still costs a lot, automedkit and all that, CA is still CA. BUT WAIT, there's more! now we have a KHD, that's a long awaited and weclomed change. and then we get Dazer. Is it just me, or having that thing on a minelayer is just kind of obnoxios? It works through walls if I understand correctly, and that's just kind of nuts, no? it lets you slow down most of your opponent's attempts to get to objectives or move a rambo up to your deployment. and also opens up to some shenanigans and mind games, giving your opponent some hard descisions to make - to movw through or around that dazer zone, with potential ML noctifer and a bunch of other camo in the midfield that's a great defensive area denial tool, can't wait to try it out.

    16) Malignos. Still expensive and kinda meh I guess? a bit pricer than normal TO infiltrators, it's painful to consider playing it after running Dasyus even for a couple of games... But CB is CB, and SMG's are SMG's. Like, seriously? No, SERIOUSLY? a KHD Malignos for 33 points? with a blody SMG? And as if that wasn't enough let's give it a dazer just because. On a topic of SMG's, I don't really consider them 'Underpriced' because outside of 8" they aren't really much of a threat, more like they are an anti-bloat pill for units I guess. Sure, KHD malignos isn't as effective at stragiht up killing not an close range, and can't be free-roaming on the table before you remove hacking threats, but jsut get him to cover, pop up a dazer on your way there and put Malignos in suppressive fire there, and it would take a lot to dig him out or just get past him, throwing smoke aside. KHD is just nuts, but sadly other loadouts are just too much buck for their bang, espescially that whole 1 SWC for monomines.

    17)Zerats, FO's werw good, AHD was nice for Highly classified, new KHD is quite nice if you need to save up points and she's defintele a better pick compared to rodok for the same points, but a red fury with mines for 25 points and just 0,5 SWC is kinda bonkers, like, Prowler's tears, anyone? Not a top priority, but they are definetly very useful.

    18)Taigha? More like Hungries being sad zerglings in a darkest corners of a list-building. Okay-okay, I'm exaggerating a bit. Maybe a lot. But seriously, the only thing Hungries have over those is Climbing+, explode on Gakis and Dogged with larger template on Pretas. for 5-6 ponts they're not only smaller, thus easier to hide on impetous move, but also packing CC21 with berserk. SERIOUSLY? That's basically just about an autowound on anything you can run those pesky little aliens into, espescially with DA CCWs. And they dodge better, AND they hav 6th sense L1 just because. But still, Hungries do have a place in CA and Taighas are a great sidegrade, I just wish we got something more unique, but I can't complain about 5-6 point warband in a usually expensive CA. Honestly I feel like an idiot for selling two old pretas I managed to find a while ago, hope we get cool new sculpts for those and for Taigha.

    Overall I have a really positive impression of these updates, aside from some nice things kept for Shas only and having some new units and loadouts sort of invalidate older ones, and some units still retaing their no-braininess, overall there is a definite gain in variety within the faction and that us exactly what I think CA needed the most pre-last two books. (No-brainers are mainly noctifer ML and Q-drone HMG which are just about uncontested as aro choices with decent active-turn capabilities)

    Also there was a lot added to existing factions and we had a whole bunch of new sectorials and the meta is so varied and filled with new things that I'm not sure that my older lists are stlill up to the task of achieving mission objectives and dealing with opposing active and ARO threats, espescially kamau sniper feels so hard to deal with, to the point that the most efficient option seems to be just to take a couple yaougats with panzerfausts, a buffed Q-Drone and a Noctifer ML or some other long-range multidamaging weapon and just throw them all against it in a coordinated order, beacuase even the avatar's chances look kinda meh against that, or even the Charontid HMG.

    I'm not yet sure that I'll buy back into CA, but checking out all the cool new shiney toys they got and writing down my impressions of it all was quite enjoyable, I'm still under impression that there isn't as much content like this for vanilla CA compared to other factions, and I hope this write-up will be of some use to newer and experienced Vanilla CA players alike.
     
  2. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    quite interesting to read. Does any other Vanilla CA player has something to add ?
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I'd note that you can get some mindgame out of your seed soldiers by deploying the embryos prone. A prone embryo under camo is indistinguishable from a prone S2 model under camo (to whit, both are S0 camo markers with prone tokens next to them) so this helps make the seed soldier useful.

    Shrouded Dazer Minelayer is game-alteringly odd but I'm still wrapping my head around the full ramifications. Would be interested to hear how it's gone for other people.
     
  4. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    Dazers in general seem a great fit for Vanilla, even over the sectorial in some ways. Reducing link team ARO's plus tons of units with multi-terrain is an excellent combination for missions with center-line objectives like Supplies. Noctifier Missile launchers will absolutely love them, especially coming from the Shrouded Minelayer.

    The Malignos KHD is an extremely efficient profile even before the Dazer.

    Messer is a lot of utility and frees up the nearly auto include status of Kerr Nau in lists with ODD or TO camo tough guys.

    Mentor for multiple combat groups is a no-brainier, the HD is very nice with the BTS.

    New Haiduk is hyper efficient too, great skill combo in Sapper+MSV-2.

    Zerat KHD and Red Fury are nice additions, they should definitely see play. Still love the FO though.

    Sheskiin will be a nice Rambo in Vanilla. She's cheap for the offensive punch she brings, but she is a glass cannon.

    As for the pre-shas updates....

    The Soggy FA2 Feuerbach is a decent attack unit that laughs at viral ammo. He's pretty good at dominating zone of operations, ARO'ing, going after hard targets, and sometimes even fighting link teams on their terms.

    Libertos, especially the mine layer for me, are damn near an auto include. The hyper dynamic and dogged make this guy hard to get off the board.

    The Oznat Stalker is a fantastic unit in Vanilla, especially single combat group lists for me.
     
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  5. DrDoak00

    DrDoak00 New Member

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    I'm curious about what you see as the Oznat's strengths in Vanilla. Flavor-wise the profile is very cool, but not a lot jumped out as particularly above-average. Granted, I haven't been playing for too long, so I could easily be missing something.
     
  6. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Basicly its because Smoke + Sensor + Vulkan Shotgun + Chain Rifle on a unit with a free order each turn, making it a very very good unit for midfield camo cleanup.
     
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  7. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    What @Leviathan said and it's 6-4 movement + Smoke opens up some attack vectors that slower units cannot exploit. Also, the Preta is a dogged speed bump, or missile, that doesn't take an order when it dies.

    I also qualified my point of view as in the context of single combat group CA, where you have to maximize utility in a roster spot wherever you can.
     
    #7 jfunkd, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Will these new option take a spot in your vanilla list ? (some example before/after ?)

    I imagine Taiga will support Ghaki in "second group pain in the ass" job, but what else ?
     
  9. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
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    I used the new Ko Dali AD in a single combat list at Rumble and had to redesign what I had been playing because of her cost increase. Despite my love for her, I couldn’t fit the Oznat in because the scenarios dictated my choices.

    For Supplies, I wanted to test out Dazers so I played something with 2 combat groups that included Malignos KHD, Shrouded Minelayer, multiterran specialists, and the new haiduk.

    I don’t recommend playing a completely new list at an event if winning is your goal, but I went in with more of an experiment attitude. Ultimately, in game, I made some deployment mistakes (didn’t cover a flank vs AD), some play errors (revealing the Malignos in ARO), and my dice were just pure disappoint immediately starting with both Immetrons landing in my opponent's DZ. I lost Supplies 2-1 against a good opponent.

    Yes, these new units are going to change my lists, but my lists are always based around the scenarios at an event anyway.

    For instance here is the list I wrote up last week to play in supplies. This was specific to this one mission, and I didn't intend to play it for any other mission.

    Ride into the Dazer Zone
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    CHARONTID Lieutenant (Multispectral Visor L3) HMG, Nanopulser / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 79)
    DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
    DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    ÍMETRON . (0 | 4)
    ÍMETRON . (0 | 4)
    HAIDUK AP Marksman Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
    M-DRONE Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
    E-DRONE Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 28)
    ZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    SHROUDED (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Dazer / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    MALIGNOS Hacker (EI Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, Dazer, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33)
    IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    KURGAT Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #9 jfunkd, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  10. John Benford

    John Benford Member

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    [QUOTE="Shrouded Dazer Minelayer is game-alteringly odd but I'm still wrapping my head around the full ramifications. Would be interested to hear how it's gone for other people.[/QUOTE]

    I am planning to the Shrouded Dazer minelayer alongside the Sphinx.
    Place Dazer on a flank, then run Sphinx up with 6-6 movement. Having Multiterrain on Sphinx is great as it is not affected by the Dazer.
    Once the Sphinx has done its damage, retreat to a safe spot behind the Dazer. Re-cammo and let your opponent struggle to reach him.
     
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  11. coleslaw

    coleslaw Veteran
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    One other strength of the dazer is "relatively" increasing power of burst 1 ARO. All multi-burst attacker lose one burst
     
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  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The Mentor hacker is looking really good to me now. Wip 14, BTS 6, Camo. That's pretty great!
     
    #12 Space Ranger, Apr 19, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Has anyone had any vanilla CA games with any of;
    - Haiduk
    - FD2 Ko Dali
    - KHD Malignos
    - Dazer Shrouded
    - Red Fury Zerat
    - Greif

    They're all on my list of things to play with to a greater or lesser extent but either other stuff has been hogging playtime, or I've used them but haven't been able to form a clear opinion yet. Would be very interested to hear how they've done for others.
     
  14. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Red fury zerat is going into a lot of my lists lately. There's something hilarious about a 4 burst mimetism weapon that starts halfway up the table. I've managed to catch many pesky ARO models out of cover and/or in their bad range, and she's specially great at killing linked models when they don't have MSV, as most linked AROs tend to have a 0 bonus on range less than 16, so stacking a -6 (cover+mimetism) modifier really helps when dealing with BS11-12 models in a full link.

    I often use her in an one-two punch with the Q-Drone, saving the really big guns for turn 2 or 3.
     
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  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Did someone try the thaiga in vanilla ? Any feedback ?

    A second group with mixed taigha/ghaki seems a fun thing to play and I wonder if someone tried something like this.

    I'm also very curious about this one, did someone try it ?


    Also, the spitfire caliban seems a very impressive offensive tool :
    - BS 12 + camo + msv1+ deployement skill + spitfire is a very nice fire superiority tools
    - CC 23 + camo + prothein lvl 3 make him able to remove some isolated target in CC
    - D-charge make him able to do at least 1 classified obj. (and with his CC skills he can efficiently use it against a TAG)
    - on the bad side he is a bit pricey but not much more than my nomad prowler (who gets a lot of milage)
    Any opinion on him ?
     
    #15 Arkhos94, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  16. Barrin

    Barrin Nomadic squirrel
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    Creatures will behave even better than in the sectorial, because of smoke aviable. Caliban is even cheaper than Prowler. These new profiles are really powerfull. No need to ask people. Just try to play them.
     
  17. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    I'm really, really excited about the Red Fury Zerat. I didn't actually think of that one before you guys talked about it here, but now I'm dying to get a Zerat model an try it out. After the discussion here, the Shrouded Minelayer with Dazer seem very interesting too.

    Other loadouts that immediately caught my eye are the new Haiduk with MSV2 and AP Marksman rifle for just 22 pts, the Mentor with Shock Marksman Rifle, and the amazing Jayth Cuththroats.
     
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