Unconscious enemy trooper has LoF to the activated friendly trooper. Can the activated trooper return to camouflaged state? Unconscious enemy trooper is in ZoC of the activated friendly trooper. The activated trooper declares Cautious movement. Do other enemy troopers generate AROs?
Going over the wiki rules for Unconscious and Null, it doesn't seem to say anywhere that Unconscious troopers don't have LoF or ZoC, even though logic would dictate that they don't. Feels like that is the underlying question, right?: "Do unconscious troopers have LoF and/or ZoC?" If an unconscious trooper technically has LoF, that prevents entering the camo state... which would be very odd.
There isn’t anything preventing the unconscious trooper qualifying to block re-camo, or to use Alert. Stuff like Guts rolls do have a clause in them preventing an unconscious trooper using those rules.
It feels like this should be errata'd out, since its kind-of counter-intuitive. Basically Unconscious troops shouldn't exert ZoC, nor should they have LoF. I'll mention it in the unanswered rules questions section and see if we can get it on the docket.
Marker Game element with Attributes represented on the table with a Marker as specified by a Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment. Deployable equipment such as mines and repeaters are markers per the rules and it's somewhat unclear if they have LoF or ZoC. As far as I understand the rules, ZoC apply to troopers specifically (with an exception below). LoF is a bit more iffy... Marker States for troopers have 360 degree LoF, but presumably markers representing equipment do not automatically have any LoF(?) The rules do say "Unless specified otherwise, Markers have a 360° LoF." BUT this is under a subsection describing LoF specifically for troopers - so we might be able to assume that this doesn't apply to deployable equipment specifically. However, the rules for mines also say they have a 360 degree LoF. If mines have LoF that might mean that they too can prevent an enemy trooper from returning to a marker state. The rules for returning to a camouflaged state say: During the Active Turn, Troopers may only return to Camouflaged State by consuming 1 Entire Order, outside the LoF of enemy Markers or Troopers. If Markers here were only referring to enemy troopers in a Marker State, it would be redundant because "Troopers" as a whole already encompasses both Models and Markers of Troopers. As far as ZoC goes for deployables... mines have a 'Trigger Area' (ZoC is never listed, though this may be because the small direct template is not quite the same as 8"), and Repeaters extend the 'Hacking Area', which is distinct from Zone of Control. However, the Dazer rules mention that they create difficult terrain "in it's Zone of Control"... So it's actually unclear to me whether or not all markers have LoF and ZoC or whether some have some one or the other.
I am not exactly sure on the understanding on a unconscious model being able to declare Alert being shot and not dying or friendly model within 8" being shot. This is because one of unconscious's effects is "Automatic Special Skills have no effect" and I am uncertain what special skills exactly refers to in that context.
On the subject of counter-intuitive rules, Unconscious troopers can also bodyblock movement. This actually depends on the equipment. All deployables are Tokens on unless specified otherwise: https://infinitythewiki.com/Place_Deployable "Allows the user to place a Token on the game table to represent the Weapon or the piece of Equipment, with no Roll required." - Mines are Tokens that are sometimes in Camouflaged state, which use Camouflage Marker. - Deployed Repeaters and FastPandas are Repeaters, but Deployed Repeaters are Tokens and FastPandas are Models. I guess some Repeaters are more equal than others. - CrazyKoala rules don't say are they models, tokens or markers but they have a real model available so guess they are models?
Yeah I guess this throws into question the way I was interchangeably using Token and Marker. I was sort of under the impression that all markers are tokens, but not all tokens are markers, but I never noticed how Marker and Token are used in such specific circumstances and Marker only seems to apply to "marker states". Marker Game element with Attributes represented on the table with a Marker as specified by a Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment. State Token Game element that indicates the effect of a rule, Skill, or State, as a reminder for the player. Token Game element that represents a piece of Deployable Equipment or a Deployable Weapon. So a Marker is a Marker - good definition. I get that Special Skills may specify Markers (e.g. Marker State) but I'm not sure what Weapons produce markers if its not referring to deployables... unless it specifically means mines deployed as camo markers... in this case it does make sense that a camo state mine can prevent re-camo-ing since your opponent can't make you prove it's not a trooper in that moment. The thing that made me initially believe that Deployable Tokens are Markers is the fact that they have "attributes". Mines have ARM, BTS, STR, and S, but they are in fact Tokens. You're correct that the existence of some things like Fastpandas as models (which can be represented by tokens) is a bit inconsistent. The rules do say that Troopers and Markers prevent recamo-ing... so the existence of some equipment as models doesn't affect their (in)ability to prevent re-camo-ing. HOWEVER, it would still affect the ability to Cautious Move (dependent on whether said models technically have LoF and/or ZoC), since Cautious Move specifies "Models and Markers" rather than Troopers and Markers. So, for example, a Dazer (which the rules state does have ZoC) would prevent cautious movement within it's ZoC (it's unclear whether a Dazer has LoF). It's robably a massive corner case though due to the movement challenges you'd experience inside the Dazer zone making Cautious Movement useless. A Wildparrot is a mine via the rules (so it has 360 degree LoF) but is also a model, so a wildparrot spotting you from across the board could also technically prevent a Cautious Move.
So a Marker is not a form of Token, nor is a Token a Marker. I think the usage of Token in the wiki is confusing though. The rulebook frequently uses Token in the general sense (also in referring to State Tokens, Order Tokens, Command Tokens, etc. as if they are subsets of token)... yet the wiki says that a Token (with no other qualifiers) refers specifically to deployable equipment. Probably neither here nor there but it's annoying.
What the rules are trying to say is that you have different classes of things on the table. Disclaimer: I'm not using CB's terminology because CB has a terminology problem, or at least a problem with using the same word as a game term and a regular word. Troops (have stats and generate orders) Deployables (have stats). CrazyKoalas, revealed mines, etc. place holders (things on the table representing the position of something that may be a troop or a deployable). For example, camouflage markers. Decorations (just on the table to denote game state, or distinguish troop profiles). Like TinBots, prone markers, wound markers, etc. You'll note that you'll see CB produce deployable weapons that have metal or plastic models, and deployable weapons that get represented as markers. It doesn't matter which option is used. In all of the cases, it's something with stats that doesn't generate orders, so it's treated as a deployable. See also TinBots, which at least point out the situation: TinBots are pieces of Equipment, so they cannot be targeted by any Skill, even if they are represented by a Model or Token. TinBots are just decorations so you can tell which troop profile is being used. Likewise, both CrazyKoalas and mines are the same category of thing, even though you can buy metal models for the CrazyKoala but you'll be using some marker or other for the mines. In the previous edition, mines were FAQ'd to prevent recamouflage basically to eliminate "Here's a 100% reliable way of finding out whether that camouflage marker is a trooper or mine." In this edition, anything under a camouflage marker qualifies to prevent re-camouflage. --- The unconscious model still qualifying to prevent re-camouflage may be a left over from N3, but honestly, how is it any different for a deployed repeater (a game element on the table with stats) being able to prevent re-camouflage, even if there aren't any enemy hackers left? Or, for that matter, a revealed mine will prevent you re-camo'ing even if you're well outside of its denotation area. If that mine can tattle, why not the unconscious trooper?
The only thing that has meaningfully changed between N3 and N4 that I can determine is that re-camoing went from "outside the LOF of enemies" (note: an "enemy" in N3 was specifically a trooper) to "outside the LOF of enemy Models or Markers". Most other logic seems the same so it's more likely that this has been a logical problem for several editions that no one has really thought of asking earnestly until now.
We discussed the token thing a little bit before here: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/deactivator-and-motorcycle.40148/#post-413167 As far as I can tell, there are State Tokens - what @solkan calls "decorations" - and there are Tokens - which represent Deployable Weapons and Equipment. The rules pretty frequently (almost always, in fact) fudge it by referring to State Tokens as just "Tokens" (e.g. a "prone token" should really be called a "prone state token"), but nonetheless, the distinction drawn in the definitions is clear. So let's call the non-state kind of tokens "Deployable Tokens." The distinction drawn in the definitions section seems pretty absolute - anything that indicates a state is a State Token, anything that represents a deployable weapon or piece of equipment is a Deployable Token, and there isn't anything else that's any kind of Token. I also think Marker refers exclusively to something that represents a game element that's in a state which conceals its identity and attributes (camo, impersonation) or a fake version of same (decoy, holoecho). From a keyword search of the wiki, those seem to be the only actual uses of the word in the rules. So a mine that's in the Camouflaged state is represented by a Marker, because it's a "game element with Attributes represented on the table with a Marker as specified by the Camouflage Skill," but a mine that's not in the Camouflaged state is represented by a Deployable Token, not a a Marker. It doesn't meet the definition of a Marker because, although it is a "game element with Attributes," it's not "represented on the table with a Marker as specified by a Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment." The fact that Koalas and such have physical models has no rules effect. They're Deployable Tokens, not Models, in game terms. Likewise, the fact that I use a model of an innocent-looking granny as my Impersonation Marker doesn't change the rule that the Fiday is a Marker, not a Model, until revealed. Consequently, I think it's clear that a revealed Mine doesn't prevent re-camoing, while a Camouflaged Mine does. (None of which answers the OP question about Unconscious Troopers).
A very useful thread, thank you for asking the question @Tanan. I’ve also been scouring the book for the answer but as others have noted there isn’t anything in the rules as written that clearly define this. A lot of comments from pretty much all the users who’ve replied so far do help in the understanding of the mechanics of the situation. I do hope they put it in an errata soon to ensure things are clear.
ITS-13 defensive turret can be a Token. What happens if a trooper declares cautious move inside its ZoC and/or LoF?
Because they are Deployed Weapons / Tokens that react according to their specific rules and not Troopers that would declare AROs, Cautious Move is ineffective against F-13 Turrets which will still react with a BS Attack. For the same reason it's not possible to "bait" AROs from them as they do not react to ZoC at all.
Defensive Turret ... These turrets are fixed to the floor and cannot move. They must be represented by a Defensive Turrent Token or by a Model or piece of scenery with the same Silhouette value (for example Turrets from the Defiance Scenery, or Fiddler’s Turrets). The Defensive Turrets F-13 are Deployable Weapons, reacting with BS Attack or CC Attack to any Order declared by an active Enemy Model (but not Markers) in LoF or in Silhouette contact" Cautious Move Requirements At the moment of declaration, the Trooper must be outside the LoF and ZoC of all enemy Models and Markers. Effects Allows the Trooper to move up to the first value of his MOV Attribute, generating no enemy AROs in the process. For this Cautious Movement to generate no AROs, it must begin and end outside the LoF and ZoC of all enemy Models and Markers. Impetuous During the Turn's Impetuous Phase, the player may activate each Impetuous Trooper once, without spending an Order. During the Turn's Tactical Phase, the player will place an Impetuous Token next to every Trooper with this Special Skill. This Token will be removed when the Trooper is activated, or at the end of the Impetuous Phase for any Trooper that has not been activated. Trooper can declare successful Cautious Move while in LoF on Defensive Turret, because the turret is a Token. This wouldn't generate any AROs. The Defensive Turret would shoot because it doesn't ARO, but "react"? Trooper with MSV and in ZVZ can shoot turret without suffering any attacks in return, because Turret doesn't have LoF. Only AROs can be used shoot without LoF to ZVZ? Impetuous activation doesn't cause Defensive turret to "react with BS attack" because Impetuous activation isn't an Order, but a Token?
Mostly correct, yes. No different from a Drop Bear. I would advice, however, that even if the Impetuous trooper activates without spending an order, the Impetuous activation still follows the Order declaration sequence so should still be treated as if it is an order as far as the opponent's assets are concerned. Not that I'm arguing from authority here, but I'd still feel justified applying sock-Maghriba-logic on this one. (I did just post a question in the ITS sub-forum about it in the hopes that Helllois picks up on it, however.)
Once we read the Turret rules that precisely, they only react to an "order declared in LoF." So if I start outside their LoF and declare an order that moves into their LoF, they don't react. For that matter, the whole wording is wrong, because one doesn't declare orders. One spends orders to activate troopers which then declare skills. Since it's impossible to declare an order, the Turret can never react to anything and is just a scenery piece. Alternatively, I think the Turret wording wasn't thought out, and the intent is that it just AROs a BS Attack in any situation where that ARO would be permitted.
