Two markers walk into a bar...

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by wuji, Mar 21, 2021.

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  1. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    What happens if a camo marker walks into silhouette contact with a holoecho? Sources please.
     
  2. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure that the Camoflaged model would be revealed. 3rd bullet point states it would be revealed if it move in contact with an enemy model.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Theres no image
     
  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Camo Marker would be revealed because they Moved into S2S with an Enemy.

    Technically an Enemy entering S2S with a Holoecho isn't a Cancellation clause: "It enters in Silhouette contact with an enemy Model." BUT, I'd argue that such a close reading is problematic. In which case the Holoecho would ALSO (and simultaneously) be Cancelled.
     
  5. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    It's on the Infinity Wiki under Camouflaged State: Cancelation.
     
  6. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    "Holoechoes are considered real Troopers in regard to providing AROs, checking LoF, and activating Enemy weapons or pieces of Equipment (Mines, CrazyKoalas, etc.). Each Reactive Trooper must choose only one of the Holoechoes activated by the Order as their target, but they are not obliged to choose the same target."

    Doesnt say...

    Also, Haloecho cannot move into Silhoette contact with a Cama marker.

    I'm actually under the impression that neither cancel each other out for the promise of silhouette contact. There isn't anything that state's it. Plus, conceptually light is projected onto a given space and the camouflage bends the light to appear the same on the opposite of the camouflage so anyone looking at it wouldnt be able to tell there is an invisible trooper there or that the holoecho isnt real. There's no physical person to disrupt the camouflage bearers outfit thus making them slightly visible (like the predator). I mean, think about it, an enemy has LoF to your holoecho through the silhouette of your camo marker.
     
    #6 wuji, Mar 21, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
  7. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    This thread has an interesting discussion of whether "enters in s2s contact with an enemy model" refers only to an active marker which moves into s2s, or whether it refers to any situation in which s2s contact comes into existence: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/order-of-resolution-in-step-6-1-effects.39177/

    In that thread, we were talking about camo markers, which can almost never be in s2s contact with an enemy other than through their own movement. It's interesting to now see that holoechoes have the same cancellation clause, since it's much easier for an echo to wind up in s2s contact with an enemy without moving. So it really centers the question of what "enters in s2s contact" means. If A declares Move and moves into s2s contact with B, then has B "entered in s2s contact with A" for the purpose of marker cancellation clauses?

    My opinion was, and still is, that "enters in" should have a broad meaning - if you weren't in s2s contact and now you are, then you just entered into s2s contact. I think you're expressing the same view, @inane.imp .

    It would be somewhat bizarre if a holoecho were cancelled if it moved into contact with an enemy, but not cancelled if the enemy moved into contact with it. I mean, it would work fine in terms of playability, I'm just not sure why the rules writers would want the two cases to work differently.
     
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  8. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I edited my comment, have a look.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Basically any other interaction than both Marker states being cancelled is extremely weird. Playable but weird.

    But I think from a close reading @wuji is technically correct:
    Camouflage is cancelled when it moves into S2S with an enemy model. A Holoecho is a Marker, not a Model. Equally since the Camouflage state is not cancelled then the Holoecho also does not enter into S2S with the Camouflaged Trooper (this is irrespective of how you read "enters in").

    The key issue is that the cancellation clauses specify model.

    This is a BAD reading as it means that Holoecho'd models are immune from CC by Marker state troops. You'd can't even risk the 33% chance of picking the right one.
     
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