Tuning up the Lizard

Hello fello Nomads.

I’ve been playing the different sectorials and took a lizard recently and it felt pretty tanky (aside from failing a guts check to a combi-rifle, more on that later) but bland. Additionally the flamethrower Lizard has the same points as the Salamandra, which has a better gun in active turn and +3 BTS and a KH pilot. About the only reason to take the lizard over the salamandra is the difference in SWC (1.5 vs. 2). Additionally if we compare the lizard to its contemporaries (the other mainline battle TAGs (MBTs): Squallo, Magariba, Guijia, and Raicho) it also feels bland. Squallo is remote presence, Racho is immune to AP and has unique weapon options, Maghiriba has 360 visor and unique weapons kit, and the Guijia is a super jumping melee TAG. Also all of them except the Guijia has ECM: Hacker -3.

In short, I think the Lizard needs a tune up to make it a bit more fun to play and give us a reason to take it over the szalamandra. First I have some basic changes I think should be made just as a baseline update to the thing, and then some experimental ideas.


The basics:

* Make the Lizard AVA 2 in Bakunin. Praxis is responsible for these things, it is literal military surplus, the reptile series this belongs to is explicitly cheap and easy to maintain (from the gecko and iguana profiles), just make it AVA 2 in a sectorial like it’s contemporaries.

* Give it Courage or Religious. It’s an armor 8 tank (11 in cover) with the blessing of Praxis and Jurisdictional command. It should not make a guts role cause some combi rifle got a lucky hit. They gave courage to both the Guijia and the Maghiriba for N4, made sure the Squallo has it even though they de-nested the rule from remote presence, and the Raicho always had religious. CB, go ahead and complete the set.

* Fireteam: Duo. Technically this is an update to the sectorial but all it takes is adding it to the unit profile, and it’s strange that it’s the only MBT that does not have this.


These three changes are more to bring the lizard in line with its contemporaries and the design concepts that went into N4 TAGs. Now lets put on our mad boy caps and brainstorm how to make this TAG more unique.


Concepts to think on for updating the lizard.

Wetware: Nomad wet-ware, man-machine interfaces, cyber security, and electronics suites are second to none. This isn’t even the nomad nation saying it, O-12 believes it. When they had the choice of making other factions design the ZETA they got a Pan-O design and then wanted it upgraded. They could have chosen the single most powerful computer designed by humans that can crunch exabytes of data in seconds, or a bunch of coked out mad boys from Praxis to bling out their TAG. They chose Praxis. So knowing this fluff, I personally want to focus on wetware and information warfare side of things and here are a few ideas.

* Dodge=14. We have the best man-machine interfaces, so our TAGs can react better, especially the Lizard. This change would likely be cheap on points (if anything at all) and would not require writing a new rule. We would definitely make use of it (stupid mimetism-6 Missile Launchers…)

* A nuerocynetics gun. Ideally something small like an SMG, but put the nuerocynetics on the gun, not the profile (i.e. Submachine Gun (Neurocynetics)). This would give the TAG a useful tool to keep ankle biters off it without giving it something as powerful as a total reaction option…

* Total Reaction. Okay, definitely would need to increase the points costs but… wow it would be fun to play with, likely borderline or completely broken depending on how much they increase the points by.

Here’s a couple other ideas I have heard bandied about but I am less certain on.

* Metachemistry. Alright first off… it is possible. Liard TAGs can already take biografts and silk upgrades in the RPG, which is canon, and their pilots have a tendency to get grafts that match the ones on their machine. So short version, nomads can make artificial systems that mirror biological ones. Can they make a pile of nuts and bolts replicate the effects of metachem? Yes in theory, and the lizard is the best frame to do it. The lizard is an old frame and the nomads make it better through upgrading and miniaturization, which means it is kind of like blinging out an old muscle car, you know everything about it so it is easier to add an unknown component to test how it works. It’s a known variable and thus perfect for experimentation.

So after all that, why am I against it… because it’s impossible to balance meta-chem on high power models. The Kiel-saan is hands down my favorite model in Spiral Corp, but he is inconsistent as all hell. Sometimes he’s a phys 17 regenerating monster, and other times he gets climbing plus. The more powerful the model, in many ways the swingier meta-chem becomes. Also, there’s a lot of metachem results that would need to be rewritten or altered for a TAG. +3 phys sounds great, except the dodge roll for a TAG is a static 11, not it’s phys, same deal with gizmokits.

Same argument applies to giving it booty (though a lot easier to justify from a fluff/logic perspective). IF they went with meta-chem or booty I would love to see it get a re-roll on the chart as well, and possibly make it a Bakunin only profile but I am biased towards making sectorial only TAG profiles.


* ECM: Hacker (-3). Alright, this rule is already on three other MBTs (Squallo, Raicho, and Maghiriba)... but I don’t want it. Despite how often I am accused of just wanting everything the same, I don’t. Giving this rule to the Lizard would be lazy at this point and ignores the fact that we already have a TAG that uses this rule and arguably does it better, the Iguana. So yeah, it could happen, but then we’d just be a worse version of the Squallo, and be watering down the TAGs in our own faction. Hard pass.


Well that is my two cents. What do you mad mechanics think? How would you make the Lizard more unique?


Some seeds for your design process:

* Wetware tech: Nomads are the best and we have O-12’s seal of approval (even if we did gyp them with a BTS TAG, but it does have ECM:Guided (-*8*)

* ECM Tech: Nomads did design the only ECM -8 TAG in the game, the Zeta… maybe it’s a typo but maybe it’s also true (despite that rule typically being in multiples of 3)

* Bleeding edge: Every nation does illegal research, but only the nomads do not have to hide it. When your science project is 100% legal there is so much less red tape (you just fill out a requisition form instead of having to shuffle your budget and materials appropriations through 12 shell companies), and that means you spend more time pushing the boundaries of what man should (not) know.

* AI Tech: Yeah the nomads hate Aleph, but that is specific to Aleph. We have AI units such as Pi-well and even an AI crime boss (woops). Point is, unlike everyone else Nomads view the one AI law as a guideline… if that. Also the Black Hand funded an operation to save a Knight Templar, so we have a resident expert and he has no problem gifting AI swords to people (ask McMurrough).


And yeah, I am certain I forgot something but go nuts.

 

Sadly I agree we won't likely get an update anytime soon (at least not one adding significant new features), but there is an update coming down the line and I figure a forum discussion on the model might prick someone's ears that the lizard could use a tune up.

The grenade launcher is sweet, but sadly draws comparisons to the squalo, to which the lizard compares very poorly (Squalo has higher BS, CC, ECM Hacker -3, etc for a 3 point difference. discussion for another time). I dislike the lizard being a less good Salamader, and I dislike it being a worse squalo even more. Even if it loses the grenade launcher in the process of becoming more unique and flavorful I'll consider it a win.

 

-- agreed, hence why I would like to see it reflected there. It's a creative goldmine left unplundered.

-- you literally posted pages that justifies throwing biological grafts and more "organic" style rules (think the meta-chem chart) onto the TAG and implies it is more than just a straight upgrade.

-- I am going to disagree with all of that. The reptile series is military surplus, literally Pan-O made too many of them and sought to sell them, the nomads bought them all, and they were bought CHEAP as noted in the gecko fluff and the elsewhere. None of that screams "rare" to me. Additionally Haq can run 2 Magis or 2 Shakush in Ramah and Hassassin Bahram respectively, and they explicitly have problems replacing TAGs due to cost according to the RGP Book. Granted, the RPG is a 3rd party product even if it is canon and does disagree with previous fluff occasionally so it's dicey to say which is right. Regardless, even in Tunguska we can run two salamandra, which is also reptile series and arguably more advanced than the lizard, so AVA 2 lizards seem reasonable from fluff standpoint, and we already covered that all other MBT's have AVA2 in at least one sectorial so it seems CB has no problems on the rules/gameplay front either.

I'm sorry the concepts of esprit de corps, teamwork, and professional military are difficult to grasp. May I suggest the Blue Falcon Archives for someone of your discerning eye? But to address your... point. According to the pages you posted they are chosen for their "ideological viewpoint and aesthetic in congruence with the Lab's"... so you think they are choosing people who aren't willing to take a few hits while standing in a tank? Picking pilots that are not loyal enough to the lab/bakunnin/the nomad nation to brave enemy fire? The fact the lizard pilots are their own sub culture and are willing to get an SMG implanted into their body as part of a ritual makes them sound a bit cult-esque, maybe religious instead of courage? Either way, let's not have a tank laying down suppressive fire flee from a pistol.

ah, something positive to say in a post about updating unit with languishing rules and a languishing model. Given how often the reptile series is noted for being easy to maintain and repair (Gecko and Iguana unit entries mention it specifically), it is kind of weird we don't have a engineer TAG pilot. This also fits with real world tank crews often picking up a bit of mechanical know how explicitly so they are more capable of keeping the vehicle moving and fixing it. Sadly I am not certain we will ever see it as a tag pilot popping out of it's TAG to repair it/clear isolation/etc, may be a bit too powerful but frankly I'd welcome it and it makes the most sense here among the nomads.

 

-- Do you not know what a blue falcon is? Wow... Tell me you know nothing about the military without telling me you know nothing about the military. Short version, a blue falcon is a someone who sacrifices a battle brother for their own good/advancement. ?That you think a "special snowflake" would not lay down their life for a fellow soldier says a great deal with this revelation, but I digress.

-- Okay, Fanatical does imply a willingness to accept harm to oneself for the sake of a greater cause, "filled with excessive and single-minded zeal" is the literal definition and you were the one to use that word BTW. Additionally, are you implying death is worse than possible death?... Okay, that's an argument I guess. Regardless, we are talking a walking tank. It isn't wearing a flak jacket, it's layers of steel and teseum driven by the best man-machine interface known to mankind. It's easier to feel safe in a tank than it is in body armor.

-- Yes it requires training, training the nomads clearly have access to. Heck they train the morlocks to be cooler under fire than the tank pilots, and that is not even considering the Taskmasters or the at least half dozen units from other ships. Also no I am not suggesting the nomads put their brightest minds through brain washing, quite the opposite. I am suggesting they pick from the people most likely to give themselves to the cause, exactly like the pages you posted suggest, so brainwashing *isn't* needed. the whole "brightest minds" schtik sort of sounds like a straw man argument to be honest, taking a clear argument "that nomads recruit lizard pilots from those that agree politically with the labs" and taking it to be "our brightest minds be turned into brainwashed slaves".

-- So they are doing it just because they can... going through a "ceremony" to have a weapon invasively installed in their body because they can, be at battle readiness at all times because they can (including carrying further equipment at all times), and then later having that weapon UN-installed (again through invasive surgery) from their body because they can... Sure. I have some land in Persia if you're interested, really great farm land and an amazing view.

-- yeah that sounds like a straight upgrade, no reason to install experimental parts for a routine upgrade. Nope, no reason, just usual stuff there.

-- no way to get similar numbers to PanO, even if they bought the entire stock off of PanO. No way they could produce or upgrade enough machines equal to PanO... even if their entire stock was produced by PanO... Wait a second... PanO produced X units, and the nomads bought all of PanO's units, so now the nomads have X number of units produced by PanO... By all that is Good... THE NOMADS HAVE A PANO WORTHY STOCK PILE OF REPTILE SERIES TAGS!!! Seriously, even without considering that the nomads only need to secure a fraction of territory that PanO holds (since they don't have a continent long border with any other nation like on Svarlheim) that argument sounds implausible as they literally bought PanO's entire stock. If PanO can field 2 squallos, then Bakunin can run 2 lizards since PanO produced enough for Bakunin to do so. If your argument is "something something upgrades" then just walk out now, Praxis is funded by tunguska. They have the money to blow on coke and catgirls (also known as the "scientific method" on that ship), they can afford to upgrade military surplus as it is one of their primary jobs not only for themselves but for resale. Heck, the pages you posted make a point that they have so many they put some back on the market after upgrading them (though not as much upgrading as they do for their own use).

But here's the real question for you... What do you want the lizard to be? if you were not constrained but instead led by the fluff and your imagination, what would this TAG be, because that is the real meat of this post. That is the real question posed.

*What. would. you. design?*

 

Everyone in the human sphere uses human pilots except Aleph, it's only a question of where the pilot is sitting. Remote presence TAGs still use human pilots, they are just controlling the TAG remotely, it's why the nomads were brought in the upgrade the ZETA.

 

The wetware stuff comes from the lizard unit entry, N3 core book, and the ZETA fluff. The ZETA in particular is the nail in the coffin as unit entries and faction fluff can easily be propaganda, some sections are explicitly written that way. But when another faction confirms the claim, then it's pretty likely true.

As for the courage thing, yeah that again... not supposed to be the point of the thread but people get hung up on the idea that maybe a tank shouldn't flee from a rifle. I included it for the sake of completeness, but I really just wanted to see what cool and creative ideas people would come up with for the lizard. Sadly not the case.

 

Oh don't worry, an Iggy post is coming, but wanted to do the lizard first. Personally I just want an AP spitfire on the iggy, courage, and maybe make the operator a specialist (fun fact, it is the only TAG operator/pilot in the game that isn't a specialist of any sort)

 

Yep.

 

And throwing around political pejoratives, acting like you know who would and wouldn't die for a battle brother, and a few other things. But this topic is getting stale.

But not all of the lab's personnel are scientists. It takes a lot of people from different backgrounds and skill sets to operate a lab. The example lizard pilot you posted has intelligence as one of his dump stats and technical is among his lowest specialties. Meanwhile his physical stats are his high stats and combat, fortitude, and movement are his highest specialties. He reads like a Pilot who learned a little mechanics to take care of his vehicle rather than a tinkerer that learned combat skills. And of course that is ignoring all of the fluff we are given on the guy which implies he is a more social creature. Could a TAG Pilot have been an engineer first? Yes. but the book makes it clear, a Lizard Pilot is a Lizard Pilot first and foremost.

As for not just using rems, the nomads still need boots on the ground. In the N3 human sphere book they go in depth into how nomad TAGs and rems were often paired together during the commercial conflict to conduct lightning warfare.

Because CB does. Their world is clearly derived from our own and often reflects issues occurring in the modern day. Besides which it doesn't take a modern reading to see that the implantation of the SMG is of importance to the lizard pilots. They use the word "ceremony", a word with no small amount of religious or at least sacred connotations. Even secular ceremonies are treated with reverence and hold societal importance. It does not read like something they do "just because", it's part of their induction into the subculture, and the removal of it when they leave the squad further illustrates it. It is them leaving that sub-culture and losing a symbol of their place in that culture. If it was "just because" then why not keep it, it certainly isn't the most dangerous modification on the ship? At this point it isn't really sub-text, it practically just text.

I do not think money is an issue, as we do know a faction that explicitly has monetary issues replacing their TAGs, Haq. And yet that faction still runs AVA 2 on their Shakush and their Maghiribas in their sectorials. So if another faction explicitly does have issues in the fluff, but it is not reflected in a logical manner in the rules, then I find it difficult to apply that fluff justification to another faction. Page 105 of the RPG TAG Book if you are curious. "TAGs are remarkably expensive. Haqqislam knows it can’t afford to field many, and its pilots reflect this in their cunning, cautious approach."

I believe it was mentioned in the N4 core book, but I sadly do not have my copy handy at the moment. Regardless, the fact the nomads bought all of one model of the reptile series does imply they are willing and able to buy large swathes of stock of the rest of the reptile series.

At east we agree on this point. a Lizard should not be a less impressive Salamander and it most certainly should not be an inferior squallo. So what would you put on those load outs to make it stand out?