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Tsyklons and Lunokhods: The Forgotten Remotes?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by AmPm, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    For fun, this is my take:
    upload_2020-10-19_8-41-22.png
     
  2. Lampyridae

    Lampyridae Well-Known Member

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    Do not bring linked Tsyklons. Watch the state-empire opponent breathe a sigh of relief.

    Then land a Meteor Zond.

    Explain that, yes, it has a Repeater.

    The state-empire player looks at the camo marker in ZoC and is thankful that they splurged on one of the many Camo Lt. options.

    Add that the Meteor Zond also has a Sensor.
     
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  3. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh if only CJC had access to the Meteor...

    The only sectorial allowed to link Tsyklons lacks Meteors :(
     
  4. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    You do it by starting with the Hollowman core. Take the Multi-Rifle/Pitcher profile. Forget about the Tsyklon. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Sorry, not sorry.
     
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  5. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    You donĀ“t get it. The Tsyklon having a X-Visor is OP! OP we say!
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Tsyklons are now Wildcards in all three Sectorials!
     
  7. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    <excited girl screams!!>

    ...but I want a Meteor in CJC. Can we have one please? Seems like an old concern that I never understood why it is not available, CJC being the premier AD faction.
     
  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Probably similar to the gecko list in this post; https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...f-corregidor-tactica.1693/page-27#post-372053
    Just move some points and SWC around to make some space for the ML bot.

    The closest thing CJC has is the Dep. Rep. Tomcat who can walk in drop a repeater then point a light flamethrower menacingly at the camo marker and threaten an intuitive attack.
     
  9. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    There was a year where I religiously brought a lunokhod in just about every list. With N4, I'm not sure I'll use it again. I can't pay that much for only half as many koalas.

    otoh, the Tsyklon was overpriced garbage, but now it's highly synergized overpriced garbage... the linking, the x-visor, the pitcher, it's all so horribly tempting despite the Vostok being clearly better. I will get drunk and try it a few times.
     
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    TBH that was also relatively true in late N3 CJC. You could happily build 15+ order lists that could do it just as efficiently (more orders balanced by lower chances of success). I certainly had planned to run that combo in N3 before COVID hit and cruelled my game-playing options. It was good, but judicious placement of marker state KHDs or use of marker states to protect key pieces rendered it less powerful.

    Honestly, linked Tsyklons are fine. The advantages of mixed links with ready access to linkable Engineers + plentiful ways to exploit their hacking utility means that you're really not over-paying for them: they're effectively in the same place as expensive utility MI in that they bring a lot of unique capabilities to a fireteam.

    Their issue is "umm, outside of a Fireteam why would I take one?"

    B1 Pitchers on 12s out to 24" is good, but hardly reliable enough to be efficient, you really need to be on 15s to get efficient use out them: to really abuse the Pitcher+X-Visor combo you want B2 Pitchers on 15s out to 24" and 12s out 40".

    The same applies to exploiting the 360 Visor + X-Visor combo. To get close to the same performance as the Vostok you need to be running Assisted Fire on a Suppression Fire Spitfire Tsyklon (which is now 1.5 SWC/ 42pts). Whereas in a link the Feurbach 360 Visor + X-Visor is B2 12s at any range, while also providing a top tier ARO for back line coverage: there's a LOT to love about that.

    The result is that they are - provided that you make use of their utility - a top-tier option inside of a link and inefficient outside of one. Given that they're Wildcards in every Nomad sectorial that's not an awful place to be: "hey these are designed for sectorial play inside of Fireteams" is a perfectly valid design space.
     
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  11. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    if there are better options than them... they are not top tier (The top tier should be the ones better, not them). I don't understand why the exageration.

    niche? sure. Good? interesting? maybe, it can bring options and can do well against certain factions. But not top tier. That has been a problem I've seen with nomads since n2. There have been always someone, that will mark any (And I mean, even old securitates, those with repeater and 6th sense for more than 22 points that remained untouched since n1, which at the beggining of n3 were one of the worse profiles in all the game), any profile (not necesarily all troop/profile at the same time, only some at a given time) as "top tier", "the best in their type", "op" and so. Why, a troop that got more expensive with the edition change when both ARM/BTS and 360 visor (The main reasons it was expensive in n3) got theorically cheaper (jet, it seems that only for HI/TAGs, and remotes didn't get any discount because hackables too), but the unit got more expensive, now is better? Don't take it as something personal, I just am not able to understand those points of view.

    we all know fireteams make viable units that outside are not so, but that doesn't make them OP or top. The top ones would be those that outside FT are allready good, and inside get directly better, and tsyklons are hardly in that situation.

    Some people are just saying that making vostoks more expensive would make tsyklons more interesting, while others continue seeing tsyklons too expensive for what they are. What about the other way? making tsyklons cheaper (because they are a bit too expensive). Wouldn't it make them directly more interesting than not only vostoks, but other options?
     
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  12. Lampyridae

    Lampyridae Well-Known Member

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    It's all because The Man wants to keep us down.
     
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  13. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Clearly an Aleph plot
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @Armihaul - fundamentally you and I disagree on how wide the range of top-tier option are, so I think we're talking past each other. But sure, it's not best in class and top-tier is probably a little hyperbolic. But core-linked where you're making use of it's synergies with the rest of Nomads options then yes, I'd say - given that the meta is very fuzzy right now - it appears to be a top-tier option (albeit I'd agree probably just scrapping into it). To put that another way: "in its niche it's top-tier, outside of that it's sub-optimal". That largely seems to square with your take on it, just with a slightly different emphasis.

    But that means in most Nomad archetypes it's sub-optimal, and in some it's solidly trash. In say StarCo I don't even bother looking at them. StarCo has none of the synergies that elevate a Tsyklon as an option.

    The problem is making them cheap enough to be a good idea in StarCo would make them ridiculous in CJC/BJC.
     
    #74 inane.imp, Oct 21, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Defining Top tier can be a little messy as it relies a lot on what the player defining it finds as valuable and how narrow that definition is.

    From previous conversations on the topic regarding the viability of nomad combat REMs it has become obvious that their are a number of people that take the PanO approach of defining top tier which is unless it has either a vis mod and/or a visor, good BS, can go in a fireteam with a B4+ gun its probably worthless which pretty much limits top tier to just pieces that kill stuff good (an approach Strongly disagree with), which yes these are top tier pieces, however they are often prohibitively expensive and obscenely narrow that they are incapable of doing anything else to help the army which in the current edition being multirole is incredibly desirable. Which is why I am yet to justify the inclusion of a Vostok in a list all it does is kill stuff good and nothing else making it kind of bad at least in comparison to stuff like the EVAder spitfire or tsyklon, both of which have have more utility and can enable mw to leverage other aspects of the lists or carry out a few different tasks as needed all while being fairly competent at gunfighting. Coincidentally both of these pieces seen significant table time in my lists.

    When compared to the Tsyklon the Vostok is an infinitely better face to face gunfighter but lacks utility, it doesn't have a 360 visor so it can quite easily be snuck up on and killed, It lacks a pitcher meaning I can no longer leverage my incredibly nasty hacking threats either actively or defensively, It's FTO profile is only a MK12 meaning it is a purely active turn weapon with a limited range of preferred targets and shorter range which when compared to the Tsyklon spitfire it will utterly shred any low to medium survivability targets but will bounce off any hard targets the feuerbach in a fireteam in comparison is -1 burst but picks up better range and two relevant ammo types allow it to effectively engage a wider range of targets. But being -9 in cover and B4 with a dam16 is unquestioningly a nightmare in active turn.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Largely agree with you: but ODD DAM16 Mk-12 is hardly 'active only': Suppression Fire, Courage with 2Ws ARM6 in cover and decent defensive Hacking through it's Repeater makes a very solid road-block.

    It's making it into my lists as a list stiffener: ie. this is something that is difficult to remove and I can use to lead attacks. Because, one of the realities of this edition is that multiple wounds matters (particularly in reactive). But yeah - at that point it's doing one thing: it shoots stuff good. My other tool-boxes are needed to support it, rather than the other way around.
     
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  17. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Forgot about supp. fire, fire teams are making me stupid.

    On the other hand you can just hit it from it's rear arc and put it down which is something the tsyklon doesnt have to worry about, but yes in supp fire if you are forced to engage it from the front it would be a royal pain in the ass to dislodge without out employing hacking or spec fire.
     
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  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I agree, in its niche (sending pitchers) it is top tier, because high BS (most of the pitchers out there have BS11), X-Visor and linkable. But in overall, is that so good at that cost? It would have exactly the same performance in that niche if it costed 100 points, but obviously, it wouldn't be good at all. I hope this absurd example helps to explain what I mean. Tsyklons can combine and synergize really good in nomads, but they are too expensive, as if they payed premium extra for every little perk it has. Synergies with other units are not "paid" in points in other armies, so I cannot see any reason for why tsyklon should do it. Also, in other armies, their stuff might even get cheaper, not more expensive, but this dude, got more expensive because reasons.

    between vostok and tsyklon. Yes, one has more utility, but the 360 arc thing can be solved with the remaining units in the list, and the pitcher thing might be redundant (repeaters is the thing were nomads are really ahead other factions, there are a lot of options). The only reall support utility it has is the X-visor, which combines with the others, but at that cost.. in TJC I would use the HM, it has MR instead of MK 12, yes, but I think it synergizes better with the other members of the FT. In BJC and CJC, for repeaters I've seen during N3 way more dependable position and normal repeateaters (zeros/meteor, morans/hellcats/tomcats). The possibility of miss is there, and sometimes, missing means loosing all hacking possibilities, just have to remember that after putting the repeater, the dude has to move out before hacking or it might give free resets when doing so. I think most people here only see think of them in CJC, and I agree that, in that sectorial, they fill more the pitcher spot than in other sectorial/vainilla, but I don't think they do it so well.

    If I want someone for utility, I usually bring them for that. Morans, zeros and so usually get to the list before tsyklon. If I want someone to shoot and sometimes do SF, I do the same and bring those. But someone that has everything...it will be too expensive, not good in any of those, or both at the same time. Luckily, Tsyklon is only a bit "too expensive", so it can be used (even if I say it is not so good, I like to field him, it just doesn't fullfill as good its duties as well because its cost, it all comes to that)
     
  19. MattB89

    MattB89 Well-Known Member

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    Tsyklons are Wildcards in Bakunin and Tunguska as well.
     
  20. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    Corregidor probably doesn't get the Meteor because they have other AD troops, whereas it's the only AD troop for Bakunin and one of two options for Tunguska.
     
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