1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

total immunity arm/bts

Discussion in 'Rules' started by dhellfox, Jun 22, 2020.

  1. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2019
    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    228
    I'm just looking through through the rules and I'm just need some clarification


    TOTAL IMMUNITY AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Optional
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    • When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.
    • This Special Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack.

    is it like Bioimmunity that it needs to be Bio-Munitions or can it be anything? (in reference to
    Karakuri high BTS used instead of its ARM for damage?)
     
    #1 dhellfox, Jun 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2020
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,906
    Likes Received:
    9,813
    As you can see in the FAQ at the bottom of the page, it works on ANY ammunition, including Normal.
     
    dhellfox likes this.
  3. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2019
    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    228
    i only read the examples, forgot i can scroll down
    epic fail on me hehe

    that realy makes Karakuris powerful for their price.
     
  4. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    670
    Yeah, it's a really imbalanced rule. It seems like an accidental side-effect that CB decided to let stand, probably because N4 was already coming and they didn't want to re-write the rule at that point.

    And I say this as someone who benefits massively from it.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,906
    Likes Received:
    9,813
    For what it's worth, this isn't a big issue with Sun Tze (who is prohibitively expensive to begin with), Kendrat or Metachem (who just don't have the ARM/BTS to cause issues), nor non-McMurrough doggos (who while being A-grade units don't really have weapons to make it a huge issue like McMurrough do)

    Karakuri used to be 3 ARM, 3 BTS during HSN2 and got a buff to 6 BTS when HSN3 was released, and it's this minor change that has become a major one now - but at the same time they're also one of very few JSA units who can gun fight as a result, so I don't know whether I think it is an issue from a macro perspective.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,904
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    Nontheless, Karakuri got a price increase due to the new Total Immunity.

    The change was addressed in point cost.
     
  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    804
    all units with total inmunity got a point increase for each wound they had, but the impact is not the same in a arm3 bts6 troop as the karakuris, or an arm 1 bts 0 as the chimera
     
    Savnock likes this.
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,906
    Likes Received:
    9,813
    They were all buffed. Full stop. The price increase was pitiful. Some of the units needed the buff on their own merits, some of the armies involved needed the buff, but this wasn't a zero-sum alteration.
    No, they weren't made more expensive based on number of wounds.

    Karakuri got slightly more expensive, but McMurrough got effectively cheaper when you consider the Impetuousness level got reduced, and while the Chimera got one point more expensive, the Pupniks did not change in price. I'm not sure if Dogfaces, Cameronians etc were altered in price. Meanwhile Sun Tze, both versions, remained unchanged.
     
    Savnock and Hecaton like this.
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,027
    Likes Received:
    4,877
    The change to Total Immunity was a bad idea. They should have changed it to "Lethal Immunity" instead if they didn't like what the name implied about the ability. Moreover, units like Karakuri need vulnerabilities of some sort.

    Especially with the changes to crits in N4, Karakuris in cover are going to be stupid powerful. McMurrough needs a nerf for a number of reasons.

    @Mahtamori Devil Dogs were changed in price, I know. They went up a bit. McMurrough... didn't, for some fucking reason. I presume he's someone at CB's OC.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    804
    well, not exactly "wound", maybe more something like "active usable wounds"?. 2 wounds + NWI= 3 points, 2 W= 2P, 1W= 1P, and so. Check it (maybe I missed some unit, but it worked for all the units I checked then). Maybe McDog didn't get the increase, I am not so sure now, but I remember that one of my CJC lists were over 300 after the cange, so I assumed he got the same ingrease as the other dogs did, karakuris did or tzuntse did. If CB then put it back later, then I wouldn't say for sure that is because of the TI change or not.

    Yes, pupniks didn't get any change, but I suppose it is because their cost is limited to 1 because they are not an active unit (and for them there is almost not difference having 0 arm and bts), pupniks don't use the usual formula anyway (that's why I didn't take them into account from the beggining). When the change to TI was done, the only unit in the game that got a discount point were the bolts (because who knows why, they were totally unrelated to those changes at that time, yet they got it)
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,906
    Likes Received:
    9,813
    McMurrough went red impetuous to yellow impetuous and increased cost by 1 point.
    Karakuri increased by 3 points.
    Sun Tze v1 increased by 0 points.
    Sun Tze v2 increased by 0 points.
    Chimera increased by 1 point.
    Bolts got cheaper because they got their Light Shotgun (expensive) changed to Light Shotgun (cheap).

    There were no blanket changes made, or all miniatures would've increased in points by the same fixed amount regardless of stats - with the possible exception of the two HIs, since skills often are more expensive on HI, again regardless of stats.
     
  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    804
    I cannot confirm that now because I didn't save any screenshot then (yet it was commented then, I am surprised that now someone denies that). I checked when the change was done (comparing app with web) and suntze (ver1/ver2) got 3/2 points increase comparing web (new) vs app (not-updated/old) then. If it was changed later and now they have again the same value, I don't know.

    And bolts got changed all of their profiles, not only shotgun ones (the spitfire got from more expensive than wildcat spitfire to cheaper). If it was only the shotgun, why spitfire (which whas the most obvious to check) got cheaper too?
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,906
    Likes Received:
    9,813
    I don't know what sources you're reading but Sun Tze v1 with Shotgun and Advanced Command has been 60 points since N3 came out and Sun Tze v2 has been 61 points on the Sniper LT profile ever since HSN3 changed his profile. Just do a google search for infinity "SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI" (as an example) and limit the time scope to get results only before the change was made. Looks like you've compared the v2 Multi Rifle to the V1 Multi Rifle, which is a 3-point difference.

    [​IMG] Neoterran Capitaline Army

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG] BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

    [​IMG] BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)

    [​IMG] BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)

    [​IMG] BOLT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)

    [​IMG] BOLT Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)

    [​IMG] BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)

    [​IMG] BOLT Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)

    [​IMG] BOLT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)

    [​IMG] BOLT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

    I don't know if they fudged with the profile, but I seem to recall them being WIP 13 before the change, which would explain basically everything. All profiles seem to have gotten a 1 point discount somewhere, the Light Shotgun profiles dropped a further point, the Drop Bear got less expensive to the same level as the Black Friar, and the price of MSV1 varies a bit but they got the cheapest version and not the Armani designed version that Armand uses.

    Bolts really needed the optimisation. They weren't bad before, but they were internally on the wrong side of the balance scale and few people wanted to play them, so the changes to them were justified, in my opinion.

    P.s. sorry for taking your comment on Bolts out of context, I misread you I now realize.
     
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    804
    I checked on all T.I troops I could find and compared the web version with the non-updated app. Its all I can say for sure. Is something we were discussing because the points changes seemed random, but the W comparison seemed the most accurate that day. Some friends here complained about how their lists were affected. If some units have gone back to their original point cost and other not, seems a bit more random now (I cannot see a reason to justify the point increase in the chimera and not in tsuntse)

    about bolts, I didn't know they got a wip decrease, that could explain everything. In my opinion, they were ok before the change, their problems were internal because reasons unrelated to this post, but there are other units that deserved that treatment but didn't, so I cannot see that "they needed" it, at least not more than other units that have been untouched this edition
     
  15. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    932
    Likes Received:
    1,651
    I went through my old pdfs and rulebooks. Bolts were WIP12 in N2, in Paradiso, in N3 as well. I don't know where you get your delusions, but no WIP13 profile exists in the old files I've got. Mayhaps a screwup with an army profile, but that has been known to be as buggy as a college share-house since the day it was launched.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,906
    Likes Received:
    9,813
    No delusions, only bad memory. It's something that's somewhat difficult to check using Google, but it didn't occur to me that they'd be written in the old PDFs.
     
  17. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2018
    Messages:
    33
    Likes Received:
    57
    As a JSA player, I need to point out some basic rules of Infinity: if your plan relies on passing a lot of armor rolls, it's a bad plan. The very point at which you start rolling saves usually means something went wrong. You win the game through winning FtF rolls and completing objectives rather than passing a lot of saves.

    While Karakuris are really resilient as long as your opponent does not use stuff like Fatality L2 in link teams or Adhesive launchers or even a basic Smoke, you can not expect them to completely win the game for you. They are usually good speedbumps and button pressers, but that's it.
     
    #17 Firellon, Jul 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
    Abydog, JoKeR and Mahtamori like this.
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,027
    Likes Received:
    4,877
    You're failing to engage with the fact that Karakuris are functionally more durable than some TAGs for a fraction of the cost. This is just one of those trite sayings that sounds good and is trivially true, but in practice, on the tabletop, Karakuris are crazy durable, immune to E/M, tougher than TAGs but cannot be possessed, and are specialists - they were granted amazing power in the Total Immunity change, and didn't pay a proportional points cost for it. Overall the Total Immunity change was a wrongheaded idea with extremely bad implications for balance.

    If CB wants Karakuris to have ARM 6, they should pay the 20 points or whatever it would be. I'd love for Kornak to have Total Immunity, that'd totally be fair guys...
     
    #18 Hecaton, Jul 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
    KedzioR_vo likes this.
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    804
    well... they are not exactly "inmune". EM deals damage to them instead XD
     
  20. melkiach

    melkiach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    794
    They also can make them vulnerable to E/M ammunition (both karakuris and Sun Tze) like the dogs are vulnerable to Viral ammunition
     
    Lesh', Zewrath and Firellon like this.