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Total Immunity - ARM/BTS roll choice

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Ginrei, Apr 25, 2019.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Can a trooper with Total Immunity, that suffers a successful hit from a combi rifle, roll the save using their BTS attribute?

    The only answer i can come up with is no. Here are the TI rules so my reasoning is easier to follow.

    TOTAL IMMUNITY AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Optional
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    • When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.
    • This Special Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack.
    The bullet point highlighted in purple doesn't function on its own. On it's own it gives no clear indication under what circumstances the trooper can choose between making an ARM or BTS roll. The requirements field is also blank so there is no higher level rule to follow.

    We do have an olive branch in that the rule starts by saying 'In addition'. We just have to decipher what that means. Luckily, there is only one rule that precedes this, so that's a good start. The only thing this rule does during game play is tell us when the TI trooper is immune to the effects of special ammunition and how to deal with that. So getting back to the second bullet point, I think it makes sense to assume we must add this rule to that situation. A situation that is only relevant during one instance, when being hit by special ammunition. Otherwise, the first bullet point is utterly meaningless.

    The game examples given in the rules seem to support this. There are only 4 game examples given and ALL of them are about Special Ammo.
    1. A hit from AP Special Ammo (ARM save)
    2. A hit from E/M Special Ammo (BTS save)
    3. A hit from Adhesive Special Ammo (NO ARM/BTS save)
    4. A hit from Forward Observer skill. Which states TI doesn't work because that isn't Special Ammo.
    The last example is particularly telling, in which it states,"cannot apply Total Immunity, as Forward Observer does not use Special Ammunition.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Let's paraphrase a little.

    - When hit by something that forces an ARM/BTS roll you can ignore special ammunition.
    - In addition you can use your choice of ARM or BTS.

    The layout is not great but it's still pretty cromulent that the using your choice of ARM/BTS is tied to being forced to make the roll, not special ammo.
     
    Wolf, toadchild and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Are you suggesting my interpretation, backed up by supporting evidence and structure, is less acceptable than your interpretation?
     
  4. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    1. "the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition."
    2. "In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them."

    TI gives you the option of choosing between ARM/BTS when rolling against Normal ammo because it treats all Special ammo as Normal ammo. When you're hit by a Combi Rifle, you get hit by Normal ammo, which you already have permission to freely choose between ARM/BTS.
     
  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    TI does not state anywhere that anything changes when being hit by normal ammo. You're making an important error regarding what happens when a TI trooper is hit by special ammo. This doesn't turn into normal ammo. The rule states, "the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition." It's about the special effects only. We treat them (the special effects) as normal ammo's special effects. In other words, there are no special effects.
     
  6. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I would like the rule to work like you say ... but I don't think it's how it's written (or intended, but who know about intention ...)

    Bullet one says "or being affected by any weapon or rule". So if you want to be super logical like a computer, you have to admit bullet 1 triggers even against normal amunition. It doesn't do anything but it triggers.
    Then bullet 2 kicks in and say "players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll".

    Unless a FAQ says you are right, I don't think you can read it otherwise than you can choose between ARM and BTS any time you have to roll for one or the other.

    PS : I thought you were not playing inifinity ? Why do you bother ?
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call that "olive branch" an "olive branch". "Smoking gun", maybe, but not "olive branch". It literally ties those two bullet points and sentences together in what I can only imagine would give an English teacher migraine.

    Immunities should really be rewritten and make use of the "requirements" section of a skill, but that's typographic and pedagogical discourse. I find the logic indisputable in this case.

    Btw, the logic is:

    1. If A then B
    2. and C
    3. If A has X, then A is null
    4. If A has Y, then A is null
    A: hit by an attack or effect that forcea ARM/BTS roll.
    B: ignore effects of special ammo
    C: roll best of ARM or BTS
    X: non-lethal
    Y: comms or hacking attack

    B and C has no relationship with each other, both have A as "trigger" condition. The "and" above is the logical operator "and". "Null" part is probably not logical language, but you get what I mean
     
    #7 Mahtamori, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    WarHound, Abydog, ijw and 3 others like this.
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I don't understand what you're doing. You're saying I'm wrong, then proceed to highlight the part that literally proves my point.

    Furthermore, how on earth did you arrive at the conclusion that Normal ammo isn''t covered by sentence; "when suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls"?

    Also, stop writing stuff like this, especially when it's easily disputable. It's narcissistic and honestly cringeworthy.
     
    #8 Zewrath, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  9. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Where are you learning english in the north ? It's amazing. Everytime you post I learn new words and have to look in the Wordref ;D (no sarcasm here, I'm serious)
     
  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Scandinavian Countries in general, especially Finland if I remember correct, learn English from a very early age and almost no English movies are ever dubbed. Plus I oversaw 20 Irish/Portuguese steelfixers/carpenters for a year, as a constructional manager. I'd say I understand most words but my written/formal English is very much plagued by Danish sentence structuring + the fact that our punctuation/comma system is VERY different to the English language. xD
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    If in doubt apply the Captain Carrot approach to punctuation, enthusiasm and gusto trumps accuracy every time!
     
  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    No, I do not have to admit it triggers against normal ammo. That first bullet is not describing the conditions under which TI triggers.
    The first bullet is describing a situation when being hit by Special ammunition. In that situation, there are also conditions that must be met. One of them is it must be an attack, or any weapon or rule that forces an ARM/BTS save.

    The first half of that bullet is not a rule on it's own. "When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls," This is utterly meaningless on it's own. You can't simply apply this to other effects as you see fit. That's what the requirements field is for.

    The TI rule lists the only two instances in which it activates.
    1. When hit by an attack/weapon/rule with Special Ammunition that forces ARM/BTS save.
    2. When hit by a weapon/ammo with Non lethal trait that forces ARM/BTS save.
    I'm amazed at how my words seem to upset you and others around here. That poster said it's cromulent that the rule is tied to the first part of the first bullet only. He gave no reasoning why. He ignored every single point that i made. Yet you have no issue with this. But you find issue with my question asking which interpretation he finds more acceptable? While I also reminded him that i gave supporting evidence.
    NA isn't covered because those are the conditions under which SA triggers TI.
    Not the conditions under which any attack/weapon/rule triggers TI. The requirements field is used for something this broad.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    This is not how the text in the rule is structured. This has been pointed out to you by multiple posters across multiple threads.
    • When suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    Everything up to the comma is the trigger. Attacks/weapons/rules that force ARM or BTS Rolls. Special Ammunition is then mentioned as something that is affected.

    To repeat the earlier posts in the other two threads where you've bought this up, and Mahtamori's post in this thread, it's structured:

    If X, then Y and Z.

    Attacks/weapons/rules that force ARM or BTS Rolls is X.
    Ignoring the special effects of Special Ammunition is Y.
    Choosing ARM or BTS is Z.

    If (attacks/weapons/rules that force ARM or BTS Rolls), then (treat special ammo as normal) and (choose ARM or BTS).


    Edited for typos...
     
    #13 ijw, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly how it is structured. I get you're trying to bend the interpretation so it works the way you want or was intended. But the structure of the text is secondary to the structure of the rules.
    That's not how it reads or works. If you want triggers or conditions to apply to other bullet points, you must structure the rule to do so. Or at the very least, move the text from the second bullet into the first and reword it.

    Can you explain to me why this trigger isn't in the requirements field?
     
  15. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Why ask a question if you're not going to listen to or even want the answer?
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Also going to join in with others - the first bullet triggers for any attack that forces an ARM/BTS roll, which includes non-special ammos. There are then two follow-on effects: from the first bullet, special is treated as normal, and from the second bullet the save may be taken with either stat.

    I agree it could be written better, and in fact I liked your rephrasing (without altering the effect) from another thread. Alas, that is not the wording we have to work with.
     
  17. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    in this case:
    1) TI works against:
    "Attack or being affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls ...",
    combi-rifle for sure such attack
    2) Howether it not use special ammo, so nothing change to normal
    3) But TI user still could chose ARM or BTS to save against forced ARM roll
     
  18. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
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    ONLY one question i realy see could be asked with these clearly stated rule - how many saves TI user must make against E/M CCW?
    only one or two because E/M CCW always inflicts one normal plus one for changed to Normal E/M?
     
  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting seriously fed up with statements like yours. I listen. This is made clear by my repeated attempts to discuss why the answers being given are incorrect.

    If I ask what 2+2 equals and everyone here tells me it's 5, I'm going to keep discussing this until it makes sense. Or do you really expect me to just shut up and take it? Is it my fault there's no way you guys can explain this so it does?
    I understand you've sided with them on how TI should be played. I understand it doesn't take a lot of rule twisting to come to that conclusion either. But if it indeed works perfectly fine as it is, why do you agree it could be written better?

    Do you honestly think that's what the RAW support? How is this game ever going to improve if smart people like yourself keep defending this trash?
     
  20. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Are some of you worried if you admit the rules say something that supports a different way to play, a way that wasn't intended, people will refuse to play as intended and play the RAW?
     
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