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Total Cover + Guts Roll

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by eciu, May 28, 2018.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So let say there's active Fusilier Angus who peek out of Total Cover and goes back in order to shoot poor Alguasile Ortega.

    Fusilier scores few hits but Ortega make all his armor rolls. Ortega happen to be within 1" of partial cover, and he wants to fail his guts roll to seek a safety behind after mentioned cover.

    Now RAW (as far as I understand) forbids him from doing so as he already is in total cover to Fusilier Angus (who returned to his total cover within his 1st short skill - movement).

    Do I get it right and peeking out/back of total cover is intended method of denying your opponent a "Gut Rolls move" ?
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You are missing the "quantum state" of miniatures expending orders, that say a miniature is, during the whole order, at all positions it has moved to.
    So Angus is on Total Cover at the start and end of the order, but he is also peeking from cover against Ortega on that order. Thus, Ortega has to improve her cover options (or go prone, or succeed on a Guts roll) against all positions Angus is during the order Angus expended, in this case against him peeking around Cover.
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Does it has to be against all positions ? So if in slightly different example Angus moves alongside a curve seeing also a flank of Ortega (lets say Ortega's potential partial cover is a bench 1" in front of him directly between him and Angus), Ortega again cannot make a guts move towards the bench (as it would give him partial cover from the front, but as Angus flanked him during movement, it wouldn't give him cover at some point of Angus path) ?
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yup, Ortega could still, however, move away from Angus and go Prone.

    It's the same thing as cover requiring you to stick to cover during all the Move short order to benefit from it (even if you moved through a Zero Visibility Zone).
     
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Isn't it that you cannot move if you don't improve your cover ? So you cannot move towards cover if you don't reach it within single Guts Move ?
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    No, if you can't reach the better cover, the Guts Roll rules don't allow you to move at all, other than going Prone.
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yup, a little mess I had with templates. In the case of the flanking, Ortega would just be forced to go prone (personally, I would simplify the rule to "fail guts => move away to cover, and go prone if there is no cover after moving").
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Also it seems that being prone doesn't lower your movement, and you can still make 2" guts move even when prone ?
     
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    • If none of the previous cases apply—because a 2-inch movement is not enough to improve the troop's Cover or make it abandon the danger zone, because the troop cannot go Prone, or for any other reason—, then, if player desires so, the troop does not move at all and performs no actions.
    Again, is it me or is it not clearly specificed that you cannot move 2" if it doesn't improve cover ?
    Mentioned sentence only gives you additional option, and doesn't explicitly (at least for me) forbids you from moving 2" anywhere you want (except for closer to enemy).
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It's not "hardly denied", but "softly implied", I'd say. And no, nowhere it's said you go prone, then reduce the 2 inches of movement (5cm) because of that... But if we go for some coherency, the Prone state says that when you declare Prone on a Short Movement Order, you move in Prone state the whole order. Which, funnily enough, means you can't get up, shoot, and go prone again XD.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @eciu it's you (well you did ask :P )
    • If the troop fails its Guts Roll, it must go Prone or move up to 2 inches in order to abandon the danger zone, gain Cover, or improve its Cover against the attack.
    You must:
    1. go Prone
    2. move up to 2" in order to abandon the danger zone
    3. move up to 2" in order to gain Cover
    4. move up to 2" in order to improve its Cover against the attack.
    If your move doesn't do 2, 3 or 4 then you can't do it.

    The phrase 'if the play desires so' is meaningless: it's permitting you to opt to do the only thing permitted by the rules.

    Also, even if Prone you still Guts 2". Even with Kinematica, you still Guts 2".

    In my opinion, having partial cover for some of your opponents firing positions is an improvement over having partial cover from none of your opponent's firing positions so I would permit you to Guts into cover. Note however, in the specific example you provide doing so would involve Gutsing towards Angus and is therefore not permitted regardless.
     
    #11 inane.imp, May 28, 2018
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Where do the rules say you make guts movement away from your opponent's firing position rather than their final position?
     
  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It's not explicit, but
    • If the troop fails its Guts Roll, it must go Prone or move up to 2 inches in order to abandon the danger zone, gain Cover, or improve its Cover against the attack.
    The attack originated from a particular declared point. So you are evaluating your cover from that point, as no other location is part of the attack. The key is that it says "attack" and not "trooper".
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah that's not clear at all. Needs an FAQ entry, I'd think.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    It says 'the attack' all the way through, not 'the attacker' or 'the attacking trooper'. So yes, the cover is based on the direction the attack was from.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    In which case this is wrong :

    You would not have cover from the declared firing position, so could only Guts Prone.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Not really a FAQ, but a clarification in the language would be sweet. Even if most of us are kinda fuzzy as to where do we execute the attack if it's not on the start or end of the movement order.
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    yeah +1 on that. Diagrams wouldn't hurt either.
     
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