1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tinfoil hat time

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Triumph, Oct 5, 2021.

  1. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2021
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    261
    This thread inspired me to go back to some my books from N2, N3 and the Haqq rpg supplement to reread fluff descriptions. There are actually a few troops in QK that don't really feel like they live up to the fluff:
    1. Hafza:
      • Infinity RPG, Haqq Supplement, pg 82, Hafza - "A Hafza can turn any group of soldiers into an efficient, coordinated combat force, no matter how eclectic or diverse their skills and backgrounds."
      • N3 Human Sphere, Guide Book, pg 135, Hafza - "Therefore, all members of the Hafza Unit graduate from the prestigious Al-Khaafidif Military Academy. The training they receive is the best and the most intense as the require both leadership and combat skills. Famous for their leadership skills and tactical flexibility, each Hafza is prepared to take the most diverse groups of soldiers and convert it into an efficient combat force."
      • Significant emphasis is made on their high degree of training, tactical skill, and ability to bring forge cohesive fighting forces from disparate troops. This is not currently reflected in their profile in any fashion. I don't feel that NCO or CoC are appropriate, but Strategos L1 plus extra LT. order or extra command token would be a good reflection of this characterization.
    2. Djanbazan:
      • Infinity 2nd Edition, pg 68, Djanbazan - "The Djanbazan are trained to fight and die without any doubt or fear."
      • N4 Core Book, pg 157, Djanbazan - "Then, Djanbazan are trained to fight and die, disregarding their own fears and doubts".
      • By their own description, Djanbazan should have the Courage skill (I don't feel Religious is appropriate, given their lack of religious emphasis and borderline mercenary reputation)
    3. Sekban:
      • N3 Human Sphere, Guide Book, pgs 137-138, Sekban - "All the money in the hands of those who wanted to establish a plutocracy and oppress their families and neighbors could not buy the loyalty of a corps steeped in Haqqislamite ideals and with a duty to defend...The Sekban fought hard and fought well, often isolated in remote caravansaries in distant systems, without the possibility of receiving reinforcements or support...Although members are still recruited from among the civilian population,candidates now have to endure an extremely severe training, because the Sekban Unit will not allow a slaughter of innocents like the Al-Umara Station Massacre to happen again while one of its members still stands."
      • Infinity, Campaign Paradiso, pgs 105-106, Sekban - Same as above
      • Given the ideological conviction attributed to Sekban and their dedication to fight to the last man, it feels that Sekban should be given either Religious or Veteran skills.
    4. Kaplan Tactical Services:
      • N3 Human Sphere, Guide Book, pgs 279-280, KTS - "KTS is a professional, reliable elite force, and the Qapu Khalqi military has become so dependent on it that Kaplan soldiers are sometimes referred to as 'the Sultan's tigers.' Under the Sultanate's command, the KTS has made a name for itself in some of the most complex and perilous operations in recent memory."
      • Infinity, Campaign Paradiso, pgs 130-131, KTS- "Thanks to their professionalism as highly trusted elite troops, KTS has been so well integrated into the Qapu Khalqi's military structure that they are also known as the 'Sultan's Tigers,' undertaking complex operations in the Sultanate's service and forgoing their fame and prestige."
      • Kaplans should be treated as Veteran or Elite troops within QK, and Hafza should not be prohibited from joining them as wildcards.
    5. Al Hawwa':
      • N3 Human Sphere, Guide Book, pg 141, Al Hawwa - "What makes this unit so special is its specific preparation in information and electronic warfare, in both naval and local conflicts, under high technology combat conditions...All of the known members of the unit are professionals in Intrusion/Infiltration, Cybercombat, and Demolition techniques...Among their many functions they exercise secret security on Haqqislam vessels involved in the Silk Trade, staying hidden among the passengers or crew, collecting data until the moment they take action... The Al Hawwa' unit has advanced material and equipment at its disposal because they are subsidized, in part, by a group of the Silk Consortium..."
      • Infinity Human Sphere, pg 68, Al Hawwa' - "The Al Hawwa' Unit has at its disposal advanced materiel and equipment, as it is sponsored, in part, by a cartel from the Silk Consortium..."
      • Despite a very impressive fluff description, Al Hawwa' currently have very average skills and equipment. Given the very strong emphasis on hacking and the hint of "advanced equipment", it would be appropriate for the Al Hawwa hacker to receive an upgraded hacking device or even an HD+. The description of infiltration/undercover work would also make Al Hawwa' a candidate to receive the Counterintelligence skill (currently lacking throughout Haqq). The sniper profile also feels like an odd duck out, since everyone is supposed to be a demolition expert. Giving the sniper profile additional D-charges or giving everyone a MULTI pistol would be a nice addition, as would upgrading the sniper rifle to AP, MULTI, or viral. Full disclosure, the Al Hawwa' sniper is probably my favorite model in the Haqq range, so I'd love to have a reason to bring it more often. Giving the non-hacker profiles repeaters would also be another interesting option to align their fluff, but it might step too much on the toes of Hunzakuts in vanilla. Generally, Al Hawwa' could also do with an expanded profile list - adding smg, MULTI rifle, marksman rifle, and/or e/mitter or pulzar configurations. Replacing the existing shock mines with E/M or cybermines would be another nod to their cybercombat and demolition expertise. Al Hawwa should also gain some BTS to reflect their deep focus on cyberwar.
    6. Saladin:
      • More a piece of trivia than a real argument, but page 71 of Infinity Human Sphere has a profile blurb on Saladin where he is shown with the QK flag next to his unit icon. I recall their was some discussion about this way back, but I can't recall why CB said they kept him out of QK.
    7. Iguana:
      • N3 Human Sphere, Guide Book, pg 173, Gecko Squadron - "The Gecko's diminutive size allowed for excellent mobility in narrow spaced, which made it ideally suited to naval operations and the walkways of spaceships and orbital platforms...Praxis technicians optimized what had been deficiencies in the original design and gave it Zero-G and EVA capabilities."
      • Iguanas were part of the original QK sectorial list in N2 Human Sphere, before the Geckos were even introduced; however, I would argue that Geckos fit with the combat environment of QK much better than the Iguana. In the halls of a starship or caravansary, an ejection system is likely to drive your head into the ceiling rather than land you a safe distance away. AVA 2 Geckos with Duo would be a very cool alternative to the Iguana, which currently feels inferior to Scarface's AP HMG profile.
    I couldn't find a fluff description for the Hortlak Janissary in my collection, but I'm missing a few books. Does anyone know if an argument could be made to bring the Hortlak into QK based on their fluff? Janissaries in general would really benefit from a profile rework, but their fluff focuses on their background and training rather than their equipment - so I don't feel I can make an argument from fluff.

    Apologies for the long post, I ended up finding more than I was expecting when I started looking for quotes.
     
  2. Cadwallon

    Cadwallon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    63
    From Corvus Belli store:

    The Soruşturma Bölümü or Investigations Department is staffed by Janissaries trained in information collection and covert action techniques, agents that act clandestinely in foreign territory locating slavers to finish them off. These Janissaries are called Hortlak.

    Not sure if fits well in QK or not. If gecko small tag suit in QK, maybe shakush can do It too (both shared s6).

    Cheers.
     
  3. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2021
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    261
    I saw that one, but usually there is a longer, full paragraph (or more!) description in the infinity book where a new unit is released. I assume it was included in Daedalus' Fall, unless Hortlak were new to N4? I was out of the loop for the 2nd half of N3, so I'm missing some of the later backstory.

    I feel that the Shakush is too much of a budget TAG without special skills and with profiles that Scarface does much better.
     
  4. Cadwallon

    Cadwallon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    63
    Hortlak profile appears in N3, but i don't know and haven't n3 book. Try to find in blog from CB when unit appears but i suspect, their lore will be the same i put earlier.

    Searching in web, mini was realased in december 2019.

    Cheers
     
  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,495
    Likes Received:
    2,354
    That's one excellent post, @Muad'dib , a lot of raw data. Great job!

    My 2 copper fiq on it:
    1. Hafza - yes, Strategos L1 and extra Lt Order or Command Token seem to reflect the fluff description best. Although I'd argue that CoC - an ability to instatnly bring together troops who have just lost their designated leader - fits there, too. But as I said before, we could have a couple of varied "command specialities" among Hafza.
    2. Djanbazan - definitely sounds like a case of Courage, as the fluff describes personal disregard for fear and death - not an ability to remain in the field no matter what.
    3. Sekban - sounds like Religious to me. The dedication to their duty and wilingness to rather die on their post than make one step back. Religious skill was long described as such dedication, not necessary based in actual relgious belief.
    4. Kaplan - agreed, Veteran Status and Hafza Wildcards.
    5. Al'Hawwa - all good options, though going for a suiped up ammo on the Sniper Rifle would drive the price up... I'm not sure it is worth it.
    6. I don't recall CB saying why they kept Saladin out of any Haqq sectorial. At all.
    7. Iguana / Gecko - agreed. Simply put, when Iguana and QK were introduced in the HS N2, there were no Geckos, fullstop.
     
    Cadwallon, dijit and Muad'dib like this.
  6. vorthain

    vorthain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    352
    @Muad'dib Damn, good job! I agree with essentially all of that. My two cents to piggyback on:

    Hafza - Yes, Strategos 1 or extra lieutenant order. It is kind of weird the Holomask isn't mentioned. I think giving all Hafazas Number 2 would be the incentive for including them when they're not the lieutenant in a fireteam - they have the leadership skills to take over the fireteam.

    Djanbazan - Definitely Courage rather than Religious. Frankly a higher PH rather than PH=13 for just Regeneration would be nice. Look at the arms on the HMG guy, for instance.

    Sekban - I agree about Veteran, perhaps even at the expense of NCO (or only NCO on one or two profiles). These guys are model Haqqislamite soldiers.

    Kaplan - I agree they shouldn't be penalized for linking; they are diametrically opposed to the untrustworthy Druze. Or perhaps separate linking rules, like Kaplans can link with Janissaries, Sekbans, and Odalisques, whereas Druze can only link with Djanbazans and Azra'ils (Ghulam and Hafzas can link with anyone). That is, a 'good guy' link and 'not so good guy' link.

    Hawwa - Counterintelligence is a fun choice. Hacking Device Plus or an upgrade would be cool. As would cybermines. Not sure if one same profile or different ones, but I'd be inclined to keep the price lower.

    Saladin - I want him in Ramah, and he's got orange accents like Ramah. But given how similar Starmada is a space fleet force and so is QK, I could see it I guess.

    Gecko - Yes, a better choice than Iguana, but with Shakush, I'd rather just drop all the Nomads from QK.

    One last thing - I haven't been keeping up on it, but are there rumors going around fireteams will change such that fireteams of the same unit will get a bonus? If so, an exemption for QK where all their fireteams get the bonus as if they are the same unit would be a nice nod for being the original mixed fireteam sectorial.
     
  7. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2021
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    261
    For Hafza, I only quoted the parts of their description that weren't well reflected in the existing profile. There is a good amount of explanation that all Hafza receive holomasks because they are such a high value command target for enemies and were therefore experiencing extremely high attrition rates.

    If I had to change one other thing about Djanbazan, it would probably be to give them BTS. They appear to wear contained breathing units, which should give them some sort of protection. I suspect the lower PH is meant to prevent them from becoming dodge monsters.

    Druze fluff really emphasizes that 1) they are highly insular and 2) highly untrustworthy, so I would actually go a step farther and say they shouldn't permit any wildcards - not even Rouhani/Leila.This hurts me a bit to say, since I really wish Druze were more usable/cost effective, but I think the fluff should take priority.

    QK-Nomad alliances play very heavily in the fluff, especially regarding the Paradiso blockade and the Neocolonial wars. It would feel very strange to remove Nomads from the QK roster, especially since they make up such a limited slice of the available options. I'd personally love to have access to more Corregidor mercs within QK (particularly to offset our current forward deployment/infiltration weakness), but it would probably dilute both factions.

    I also concur that QK needs to get a new theme - they used to be mixed fireteam sectorial and the original haris sectorial - but now everyone has wildcard and haris and many sectorials do it way better. I don't recall seeing any specific statement from CB that points towards bonuses changing to only affect homogenous fireteams, but that would be one way to tone down the superpower wildcard fireteams.
     
    Papa Bey and vorthain like this.
  8. Cadwallon

    Cadwallon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    63
    Maybe, if they need to redone a theme for QK, will be like "space marine" corps from haqqislam. A sort of kosmoflot and the Edge that differenciates it from others "space marines" IS mercs use and mix fireteams. So terraim 0G could be more common.

    Cheers
     
  9. vorthain

    vorthain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    352
    Right, like a restructuring of the QK after they were scattered at Acheron (I think that's what happened?). Maybe throw in Varangian Guard since everyone and their brothers gets access to them.

    Regarding Djanbazans, I understand about the fear about making them great dodgers (although Ariadna has tons of huge and not so huge guys that are good dodgers). What about PH12, but Regeneration (PH13)? Then, to capitalize on increased PH, a miniature with grenades. The only grenades in the faction are on Scarface out-of-TAG, with E/M on Druze. I think the basic Djanbazan with grenades would be cool, especially since it doesn't have a sculpt done in the last decade. Plus, I think it would reflect their more...cavalier/mercenary approach to Haqqislamite ideals, like avoiding collateral damage. In my opinion, at PH11, grenades are a corner case (see Naffatuns).
     
  10. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2021
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    261
    I am actually not sure the sniper upgrade would impact cost. The Hortlak Janissary pays the exact same SWC and points for both the AP and regular sniper profile, while the Al Waziri MULTI sniper pays only 1 point and 1 SWC over the Ghulam sniper. I usually have some SWC to spare in most Haqq lists, so I don't think the extra SWC would impact all that much.

    It is odd that Saladin never found a home in any Haqq sectorial. Before Ramah released, I thought he would end up there. Gabqar is the only sectorial left, but I don't think he fits that theme at all. If QK gets a facelift, it would be nice to bring Saladin into the fold.
     
  11. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    896
    It's not a rumor. In one of the Studio Updates, Carlos mentioned that there will be (barring changes, errors, or the usual) a differentiation in bonuses between "pure" fire teams, and whatever other kinds there are. There's a whole thread of panic around here since none of those terms were even remotely defined. Hopefully we won't need yet another fire team composition guide. Maybe just being "pure" will be a valid choice all by itself. But not a rumor, just completely undefined. :D
     
    #51 Papa Bey, Oct 10, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  12. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    896
    I'd like to see Hafza with more than a fixed set of skills for their leadership options. This one has Counterintelligence, this other one has NCO, and that one has +1 Lieutenant Order, or the like. Thus AVA would limit the total amount of er, commanding powers one can put on the table at once. I'd also like to see them shifting to less overtly heavy weapons. Marksmanship rifles, maybe M12's and shift the big guns elsewhere. Yes, they should also go into "mercenary" groups because if there's anyone you need to keep on mission it's going to be those guys. A limit of 1 per fireteam would also limit the use of abhorrent "fillers".

    Janissary makes me want a Doctor +3 profile back, in addition to the Doctor (2W). But maybe since they were upgraded so much it's considered to be overpowered. At least give me a solid rifle model to use! Djanbazan seem well enough to me. Druze are excellent. Al Hawwa I would appreciate a BTS bump or possibly a Firewall Tinbot. At least on the out and out hacker(s). Also a slightly wider range of weapons, like assault pistols or something. Sekban need their shotguns back instead of chain-colts. :p I'd willing sacrifice their BS back to normal human level for it. Kaplan are nice enough, if a bit on the boring side.
     
    AssaultUnicorn and Brokenwolf like this.
  13. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2019
    Messages:
    535
    Likes Received:
    780
    I think it would be great if QK makes a triumphant return. I would love to get new Oda and Hafza models. I think most of the profiles are fine, but I hope that CB leans into more Sectorial limited profiles.

    The Jannisary doctor was one of my favorite combat specialists in N3, and while it mostly got better in N4, the loss of Doctor+ mentally hurts.
     
    AssaultUnicorn and Danger Rose like this.
  14. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    There are some nice ideas here, definitely , but one problem is, that Infinity Fluff about units is mostly a propaganda. If you look at all of those descriptions it suddenly looks iike almost every unit should be some kind of veteran with great skills and abilities. So it's really risky to try to make the profiles totally in line with the often exaggerated descriptions.


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
  15. Mechanokrat

    Mechanokrat Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    16
    I think that's a very good point. And even when looking at the fluff text, the less glorious truth shines through:
    - Sekban are a good garrison unit (BS13, WIP 14, ARM 3)
    - Djanbazan are station security that won't stay down
    - Al'Hawwa spend a lot of time as air marshals
    - Odalisques are really good bodygards

    Even based on their fluff, none of these units see constant action. And frontline troops and special forces fighting the CA on Paradiso would imho be yet another level of veteran.

    Another aspect to consider is that Haqq is a smallish power compared to Panoceania, Yu Ying or O12. And Haqq society seems to be less militarized than other factions.

    So my perspective, as a noob, is that QK unit profiles are really quite fair given their fluff.

    An Al'Hawwa is no Naga, and even Nagas don't get HackingDevice+.

    Steel Phalanx fights CA on Paradiso almost constantly and most non-characters don't get veteran.

    I feel like Haqq has some areas where we are really outstanding (like doctors of course, or ambush units, warbands and area control). Personally, I would prefer if we let other factions have their unique strenghts, too. Our sectorials should be able to function on the game table. If they can do that without getting the best toys and skills, the better. For example, I think the Al'Hawwa hacker is really functional the way it is now (effective and efficient). Sure, hackers in Nomads and Aleph got better hacking gear. But they are the haqqing factions, and Haqq is not. Same goes for command, imho. It's not one of our dedicated strengths. And we are already quite solid with high WIP and hard to assasinate lieutenants. Plus Saladin. I don't think we should get every command skill there is just because other factions have it too.


    As for QK identity, I feel like there are two aspects to it: a defensive security force aspect, an an offensive corsair aspect. The defensive aspect is imho well covered (Djanbazans, Sekbans, Odalisques. Also Azrail and Druze seem most comfortable at distance). The offensive boarding aspect is carried by YuanYuan and Bashis (supported on the table by Al'Hawwa). While the are very flavorful and fun, I feel like they struggle against a more HI heavy meta. (But that might be my noobishness.) Having a more midfield ranged gunfighter that can take an ARO would be a nice thing. Like Shakush or Gecko, or a HI with AP-Spitfire or MK12.
     
    KedzioR_vo and vorthain like this.
  16. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    896
    I respectfully suggest that you re-read the background/lore sections again.

    Every faction is written with the gung ho flattering light, not just this one. :p
     
  17. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    896
    About half the offerings here are on the reasonable side. I trust that Corvus Belli has an even better grasp. ;)
     
  18. Geodron

    Geodron Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2018
    Messages:
    206
    Likes Received:
    223
    I'd like to see QK be more heavy duty marine/merchant marine fighting force centered on Sekhbans.

    I'd probably redo Janissary and Azra'il. Jans could use....more to them. Some new weapon options outside the old HI weapon combos. Or make Azra'ils into Jan heavy weapon platforms. I don't know but Janissary are just not a interesting as they could be in a N4 world.
     
  19. Mechanokrat

    Mechanokrat Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2019
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    16
    Then my writing wasn't clear enough. That's exactly my point. :sweat_smile:

    If you go by the unit fluff texts, every unit is the next James Bond or John Wick. So they are not the best argument for more powerful unit profiles.

    Looking at what other factions bring to the table, things get way more grounded in my opinion. The Aquila Guard, who supposedly gets trained at a big Panoceania military academy, doesn't get any special leadership skills. John Hawkwood, who's supposed to be a great leader and managed to get his own mercenary company, doesn't get any special leadership skills (apart from CoC if he's not the lieutnant). So I'm not convinced that a Hafza should outperform them as a leader.

    If you look at what units get lieutnant order +1, then that's units like the Invincible Army Daoying, the O12 Alpha Unit or the OSS Asura. Strong command is one of these factions' themes in my opinion. And given the ressources invested in the fluff to create them, I don't think that's the league the Hafza are playing in.

    Especially given the fluff that the Funduq Sultanate is a highly corrupt entity where leadership positions can be bought. Not to mention that some of our trademark units are Yuan Yuan and Bashi Bazouk. Successful leadership in this context probably means convincing them to show up on time, not steal too much gear and to keep collateral damage and the slaughtering of civilians to a minimum. :grimacing:
     
    AssaultUnicorn likes this.
  20. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    896
    Going by the fluff, the Hafza are trained to be leaders. By that criteria they have absolutely no leg up on any other possible lieutenant in Qapu or elsewhere in the faction. But still out-perform Aquila Guard academy graduates off of base stats for being a lieutenant.

    I'll point out Tarik Mansuri has +1 lieutenant order too.

    What Hafza actually do, is perform as "filler", lieutenant decoys, and surprise heavy weapons. Which doesn't seem to line up with that backstory either, regardless of level of hyperbole. So suggesting that adding a little something that represents that doesn't seem like a desire to make a super unit.

    QK is undermanned and overworked, hence the need for privateers, mercenaries, etc. Huge amounts of money are involved and moved around. Plus the er, regional? proclivities. Just because a system is rotten, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Because the Silk trade continues.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation