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Thoughts for 250 points tournament, advices needed

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by BlackenedHeart, Sep 2, 2020.

  1. BlackenedHeart

    BlackenedHeart New Member

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    Hi all!
    As we're having last N3 local newbie tournament I have some ideas I wanted to discuss and listen to some advices from more experienced players. We'll be playing frontline, annihilation and biotechvore, so here's my thoughts

    variant 1
    Leaf village
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]1
    SHINOBU Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (1 | 47)
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    2.5 SWC | 247 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    I see this roster mostly for annihilation and frontline, biotechvore seems less convenient because of plague zone and -3 to ph rolls. Straight superior inflitration is always good for unprepaired opponent, also we have some specs for classifieds.

    variant 2
    Samurai spirit v1──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    DOMARU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    DOMARU Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 27)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 4 SWC | 244 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    also straight forward tactic - we're going forward and hitting faces, ryuken standing moslty in supressive+mines.

    variant 3
    [ Samurai spirit heavy──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    DAIYŌKAI Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon, AP CC Weapon. (1 | 51)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47)
    4.5 SWC | 243 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    another straight forward samurai piece, but with aro/moving forward core link of keisotsu. kitsune taken mostly for her superior infiltrating smoke.

    variant 4
    miyamoto and friends──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    MIYAMOTO MUSHASHI (Regular, Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0.5 | 28)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    5 SWC | 249 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    a bit of variations from my 200pts musashi list. added rems for orders and a bit of aro, ryuken for FD mines.

    variant 5
    Stability and geishas──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KARAKURI Heavy Shotgun, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    KARAKURI (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 39)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    5 SWC | 247 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
    core keisotsu aro link+karakuri haris with support from TR-bot and smokes.

    To be honest, I'm more into "leaf village" list for annihilation/fronltine and "heavy samurai" for frontline/biotechvore, but I could be missing something due to lack of experience.
     
  2. AkiPL

    AkiPL Active Member

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    hmm...
    about list 1: looks like you will be starting up with 4 regular orders and 1 irregular... will this be enough? or you plan to deploy all "ninjas" as markers? and for the remaining 3 point I would squeeze another Yaozao to cover even more places

    for list 2:
    I would "downgrade" 4th Domaru (the one with CR) to Tanko (ie. one with Flammenspeer). This would free enough points to upgrade Tokusetsu engineer to Yuriko Oda with Panzerfaust (also engineer but with mines and Panzerfaust)
     
  3. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    So one thing I would always keep in mind is this idea of "order efficiency." Basically, you have units that are order-spenders and units that are order-generators. Ninjas are almost always order-spenders; they're not order efficient in that they need to be fed a good supply of orders from your pool to truly shine as the backline infiltrators that they are. There's also the problem that AkiPL mentioned where ninjas tend to deploy in the hidden state, which means they are not generating orders for your pool until you reveal them. Generally speaking, you want to follow the inverse law of ninjas - the less you have the more effective they are.

    That being said, I think a good team comp should usually try to be around 25% order spenders, 25% specialists (doctors, hackers, etc.) and 50% order generators/ARO pieces. You can definitely be flexible, but I find that it's a pretty good rule of thumb. For a good ninja team I might try something like this:

    Japanese Secessionist Army - Ninjas
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2

    SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47)
    ONIWABAN Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 41)
    KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 22)
    KEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 17)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

    4.5 SWC | 249 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    It gives you a good mix of ninjas and highly mobile units, backed up by a solid ARO link team. Your specialist game is strong and you can use smoke to set up close range combat, which is what JSA wants to do. The only really difficult piece here is Yojimbo, but he's the best smoke generator on JSA so you might as well get used to fielding him.

    Your samurai list isn't bad, but one thing you're missing is protecting for your HI units from hacking. I would definitely include a KHD to protect them, as well as a regular hacker to support them with Fairy Dust. Something like this:

    Japanese Secessionist Army - Samurai
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4

    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    2.5 SWC | 250 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Finally, for the Karakuri team, I would definitely try to get those Karakuri and Yojimbo into the group with your link team, so that they can make use of the extra orders. A better split for two groups would probably be something like 8-10 orders in the main group, and 2-5 orders in your secondary group.
     
  4. BlackenedHeart

    BlackenedHeart New Member

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    there is tecnically 5 orders (4 regular+LT order) for kitsune to operate if all other camos are hidden. and also 1 irreg for transforming it into reg with command token. I played a variation of this roster on 300 and it was quite effective. but it's almos one-trick thing, on next games with same opponent it will be harder to operate this.

    and about yuriko - I just don't have the model of her (the last remaining model from JSA models range) in our community there is a little homerule for proxies - you can proxy models who don't have miniature at all or which doesn't have all wargear models (and proxying with models from this type only, for example proxying kappa ML with kappa hmg or regular kappa)
     
    #4 BlackenedHeart, Sep 3, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  5. BlackenedHeart

    BlackenedHeart New Member

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    the main idea of all ninja roster is to disturb your opponent with almost no models on the table or some models in camo+couple of them just on the table. on 300 it works a bit hard, but as it should to.
    also, kuroshi is just unplayable in our meta, especially as a LT - it's a LT for a descent amount of points with only 1 wound and with no cover.

    about samurai link - i've played a link of 2 domaru+3 tankos and it dissapointed me a lot. You have just 1 domaru dead or isolated and your link is broken already, that's why I probably won't run it this link variant.

    for karakuri I thought about that, probably would change it that way, thanks.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Just some general feedback:

    1) At 250 points, I would play exactly 10 orders in every game, no more and no less. The problem is that strategic command tokens hit you really hard if you're something like 10 regular + 2 irregular with both the irregular orders in group 1. (Problem in Lists 1, 4 and 5.)

    2) It is very hard to justify a combat group that starts with less than 8 regular orders on the table, especially in JSA. Your Oniwaban/Shinobu are very order-hungry pieces because they *must* close the gap to be effective, and can't do this will only 4-5 orders to spend on them. (Problem in list 1)

    3) In JSA, a group of 10 and a group of 2 is almost always more effective than 6 and 6. 6 and 6 limits the potential of any single unit to make aggressive moves forward, which is what JSA wants to do in basically every situation. (Problem in list 4 and 5.)

    4) Any combat group with more than 4 orders should have at least once piece that can take time to shoot. (In mission spreads with button-pushing, I would also say one unit to push buttons, but this isn't the case in your mission spread). (List 5 is the biggest offender here -- what can group 1 actually do? List 4 is just lopsided with its allotment of pieces).

    5) Every JSA list needs to establish a way to deal with strong, long-range AROs beyond "throw bodies at it." (List 2 really struggles here.)

    6) With a mission spread so similar (every mission boils down to "kill the other guy" and two of them are "kill the other guy while moving forward") it might be easier to tailor your lists to potential opponents rather than specific missions.


    The Domaru + Keisotsu + Kempei fireteam is likely to shine at this point count. Something like Saito, Shinobu, Rui Shi, Double Ryuken, and whatever flavor of Domaru + Keisotsu + Kempei fireteam you like. You can tweak the fireteam with whatever, but I would definitely take the hacker to buff the Rui Shi and probably the Shock MMR on the Kempei. There's also definitely room for the Daiyokai to replace one of the ninjas if you want to go that route instead.

    In my experience, 200 point games are about your list doing the thing you want it to do better than the opponent's does the thing that they want it to do -- counterplay isn't as pronounced at lower point games (or if it is, it can end games at deployment). At 300 points, lists have a bigger variety of tools and tactics available. 250 is in a weird limbo zone between the two.
     
  7. BlackenedHeart

    BlackenedHeart New Member

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    thanks for such a detailed comment!
    I'm really feeling that format since I have problems with bringing all I want in both of my armies.
    About potential opponents- there will be probably:
    1) oss/usariadna
    2) usariadna
    3) MO
    4) MO
    5) usariadna
    Maybe there will be another usariadna player with whom I really know how to play already+onyx+vanilla haqq/hassasins
     
  8. BlackenedHeart

    BlackenedHeart New Member

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    so after comments here are new thoughts, not so experimental I think

    Core an Ninjas──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    SHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47)
    ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    5 SWC | 249 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    core link I see mostly as ARO piece, keisotsu paramedic could be cnahged to FO or regular, but I think medic will be needed more. main attacking pieces are ruishi and shinobu/oniwaban, ninja KHD - to kill opponent hackers and maybe make some classifieds.
    I also have an idea of changing shinobu for ryuken-smg, but then roster have 24 free points with no space in group 1
     
  9. BlackenedHeart

    BlackenedHeart New Member

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    i'm also thinking about roster with core link and tag, it seems more mobile in case of frontline and biotechvore and also sufficiently tough

    core and tag──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]8 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86) [​IMG]
    O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. ()
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    5 SWC | 248 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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