Hello! Very nooby player here. After a sound butt whooping last night, my friend (who did the butt whoopin' with his Nomads) suggested I should look into more heavy weapons. At the club, they had a unit box of Thorakitai. I like the models! I kinda wanted a Rebot, but they did not have any on hand, so I placed an order. In the meantime, I am trying to decide which to field.. my HMG Thorakites, or my Feuerbach Thorakites. Which would my fellow Aleph players suggest?
I suggest posting the list you used, as well as the mission being played. That would be very helpful!
Barakiel is right. Context is everything. Bottom line is that weapon choice depends on what will be your unit's role. HMG is a good weapon for an active turn hunter, because in active tur you can make the best use of its high Burst. Feuerbach has lower Burst, making active turn usage more risky, but its stron ammo combination works great in ARO. It's also useful against TAGs and Superheavy Infantry, while HMG might struggle against units with high ARM and in cover. There are more parameters, too; what kind of lists your friend plays, what units does he field often, what you can counter and what you struggle against, mission played, your own list - including if you're playing vanilla Aleph or Steel Phalanx...
Generally you want to put your good weapons on a strong chassis to maximize your use of them. A spitfire on Achilles is far more dangerous then if you took that gun and put it on a thorakiti (it's not an option). Even with the escalation to in swc cost on powerful models you still generally get more bang out of it in a powerful model. So generally a lone thorakiti isn't the best choice for an hmg. If you're playing steel phalanx the link bonuses make it a significantly more imposing threat. As others have stated, list context is a significant variable, so without more context we can't give you more specific advice. For instance use of white noise to stack mods against visored enemy models makes up for a weaker chassis, or support ware on remotes etc.
I guess I have a hard time providing context as essentially I am trying to elevate a frankly not terribly good force into something that is less awful. I have an asura, a Deva functionary, a naga sniper, sophotect and yudbots, an ekdromoi, three dakinis, three netrods,and Penthesilia. That is all I have in terms of minis. I just bought the THorakitai box set as it has HMG and Feuerbach. In terms of enemies, well firstly I don't know it could be anyone as pretty much every faction is represented in my club, and secondly, I just do not have the models to engage in the luxury of tailoring my force (yet). So, I guess that is your context right there? Small and limited model collection to be used against who knows what. Is that good? :)
I think the confusion here is that you may be looking at this from the perspective of players who have options in terms of tailoring vs particular foes and being used in particular missions. I do not have that ability. I am working on a strict budget which means I need my bang for my buck. Since I have the Thorikitai box set, the question is which one would you all recommend I use.. the Thorakites with the HMG or the one with the Feuerbach :)
Do you have an issue with proxying? You don't need to put yourself in a corner cause you don't have the models for that loadout or unit at the time. This will let you build lists for the mission at hand which is needed. If you don't you're just setting yourself up for an uphill battle.
I am 100% fine with an uphill battle. They are my favourite kinds of battles. I very much appreciate the comment on usefulness during active vs reactive phases.. that makes a lot of sense. Feurbach seems like a nice weapon to set up in a spot where it can cover lines of fire and help make things more dicey for my opponent during their phase.
I totally get using the models you have. So no worries there. For future purchases, you might look at the Posthuman boxes. They are stupidly good, and synergize well with your netrods. So it looks like you have a Naga Sniper, which is a good ARO piece. If you have the Asura Spitfire, she makes a good active turn hunter, although she has to push into midfield to take advantage of optimal rangebands. If you have the Asura Multirifle, she is a bit more flexible. The multirifle is not as good as the Spitfire in Active, but is better in ARO, she still wants to get to midfield. If I were you, I would probably start with the Thorakite HMG, to use on the active turn, to clear a path for your Asura to get into optimal position. One bit of advice I would give, is park one of your yudbots out of sight, next to the Thorakite HMG. If he does go down, your Sophotect has a good chance of using the yudbot to put him back on his feet. But the yudbot means the Sophotect doesn't have to babysit the the Thorakite, and if you wish she can chase after the Asura, or complete objectives. By the way, that SMG Thorakite is great for protecting your backfield, put them somewhere to watch over your sniper so nobody sneaks up on her.
As a generalized statement most of the time someone suggests more heavy weapons they mean you need an HMG.
Thorakitai are somewhat a subpar choice for heavy weapons. They are a bit on the expensive side (1.5 SWC) but are essentially standard, basic infantry. They don't have any form of visual modifier or MSV, meaning they won't be that good in a firefight, plus they are rather slow. They make very good backup and area denial thanks to the fantastic FO thorakitai, but i wouldnt advise you to take the HMG thorakitai. For what matters, the dakini HMG (proxy him) is plain better even without a hacker to buff him, thanks to mimetism and fast movement. Or if you want to play steel phalanx, you'll have better active turn killers. The feuerbach can be a good choice for ARO and if you often encounter hardened bullet sponge without real modifiers, since it has no equivalent in other troops (the MSR is not as deadly as a feuerbach, and the HMG may lack power if the target is behind a cover)
I find SWC expenditure a little subjective. It seems to depend alot on faction and playstyle. When I play my Aleph, I often have some leftover unused SWC, When I play Panoceania I usually run out of SWC halfway through my list. Yet my win rate is similar with both. (ie around 50%). If you have SWC to spare, the SWC cost becomes a non-issue. With the OP's list of models, I don't think he is hurting for SWC. The Feuerbach would be more of an ARO piece. And if Norrin Rad wanted to play more defensively, he could double up on ARO pieces with the Naga Sniper, and the Thoraktai Feuerbach. I would definitely try games with both, and see which playstyle seems to 'click' more. Don't be too worried about people telling you a choice is subpar. Even a subpar choice can perform on the table. If you have aspirations of becoming a top table tournament player you might start worrying about those things, but as a noobie, it is not that big of a deal. How you use with your models will have greater impact on your success rate when you are just starting out. Once you get better at some basic tactics, then model optimization will allow you to squeeze out that little extra performance. As others have said, don't be afraid to proxy some units. Most players seem to be pretty OK with proxies as long as you are up front about them. It is a good way to test new things, and a nice way to play the miniatures you want. I have some pretty cool regular opponents, and a good 25% of my collection is proxies. Whenever I decide to do a permanent proxy, I write the name of the unit on the base of the miniature, so my opponent can quickly tell what is what. (I have the VIP from Dire Foes 4, and the Limited Edition CSU designated as my Devas, I liked the idea of combat ready secretary robots.)
Take a HMG Dakini. Take a Danavas HD+ or a EVO. Put MML2 on Dakini. Watch opponent cry. Unless your playing Steel Phalanx, then take the HMG Thorakitai in a Thrasy link.
This is exactly what subpar means. It does not mean terrible or bad, it's just that it works, but there are better solutions. A HMG is a HMG, and by itself it's a powerful weapon. If you could field a yuan yuan or a shaolin with it, it would still be able to win fight and kill things due to the sheer power of the weapon. A thorakitai HMG is OK, but there are better miniatures to use the HMG. Dakini and Zayin. As for the price, see by yourself: ALEPH ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 THORAKITES HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 22) DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) ZAYIN Rebot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) 3.5 SWC | 69 Points Open in Infinity Army The thorakitai is more expensive in SWC (and even in points compared to dakini), yet he is not stronger. In fact, the dakini HMG will outperform the thorakitai every times, even without a hacker's buff. Thus, the thorakitai is a subpar choice, because for less points you can get a more efficient miniature. In my opinion, there are two cases when you want a thorakitai HMG. The first is when playing SP, it will gives you a high burst long range weapon for your thorakitai link. The second is when you want to field only "wound" troops because you don't plan on taking engineers or you want an unhackable army.
Short answer: Unless you are playing the Greek sectorial, Thorakitai on Vanilla are left to be cheerleaders that cover the sides, or emergency engineers at most. So they are mostly used in their cheapest profile (SMG + Chain Rifle) or at best with Forward Observer, then placed on the sides so if an enemy AD troop wants to enter by that side, they will be able to autohit (chain) or use Suppresive Fire (SMG, if you used it). If you want an unlinked Feuerbach in vanilla, go Teucer. If you want an unlinked HMG, go Dakini. And include basic dakinis, 13 points for a troop you can place in the midfield, then coordinate order to put 4 of them in Suppresive Fire is GREAT. They impose a -9 to the enemy (mimetism, cover and Suppresive Fire), and are fast enough they can reach nearly midfield in a single order (assuming move + shoot!).
