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Theorycrafting IA 2.0

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While we don't have much new to add and with the prospect that the Yu Jing CBLs will be the known quantity that is ISS instead of IA, we have only one single thing to go on that's new, but I think we still could use the bi-annual IA theorycraft/wishlist thread.

    What's missing in IA from the known quantities? Cheap troops to provide orders to expensive HI, doctors to keep expensive HI from being killed, engineers to keep expensive HI from becoming statues. The leaked artwork seem to suggest that this troop will be Zhanshi (and by extension Zhanshi Yisheng & Zhanshi Gong-Cheng).
    What's unknown quantities in IA? Daofei & Hac Tao. Due to the information about Shooting Stars and likely leaked artwork containing HI drop troops, Tigers can probably be added to the list as well.
    What's to expect? To reiterate, fairly reliable information on 1) five completely new profiles and 2) one of which is Shooting Star (written in Chinese). So we expect AD HI troops, but we don't know what would set them apart from Tigers, given Tiger's high BS, Mimetism and generally fairly long ranged capabilities.
    What's new, then? With the inclusion of Wu Ming in Ikari as mercenaries of all places, I think it's safe to say that all bets are off regarding if they will be in IA or not. The old argument that Wu Ming has been moved to judiciary oversight can be ignored since they now apparently can simply up and strike out on their own in large enough quantities to form really large combat groups. The new argument against it, however, is that Wu Ming can be assumed to be way too untrustworthy for use in IA.

    So, here's what tickles my fantasies (don't worry, I'll stay on topic);
    What kind of skirmishing capabilities will IA have?
    What will the drop troops have as their strength?
    Will we see doctor and engineer profiles in HI or will the "HI faction" still not have those?
    What will happen to Shang-Ji to make them worth taking?
     
  2. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    I think there will be a s5 assault hi, to balance the long range of the yan huo, so heavy shotgun, red fury, chest mine, maybe ma1, plus some sort of offensive skill to force bad modifiers like full auto though the kriza already exists. Maybe forward or mech deploy.

    I also hope the guijia gets some love and or a big/little brother.
     
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  3. Furiat

    Furiat Mandarin

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    I hope for some versitile HI. At some point, CB released Ayyar, Kriza, Shikami and Al Fasid. With Shikami departure from YJ, we don't have HI similar to Ayyar/Shikami with loads of skills and equipment. I won't argue if they are good or bad. They are just funny toolkits to use.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @SKOZZOKONZ I'm interested in your rationale that this HI would be S5. From fluff, S5 does not equate to more armour, just clunkier and less advanced manufacturing techniques (or in case of Yan Huo; all of the hydraulic stabilization).
     
  5. WaciQ

    WaciQ Member

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    I would see HI more in Mechanized Deployment, rather than AD to be honest.

    If I recall correctly, the artwork did not really support S5 for that one, cool as it might be..
     
  6. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    With Guilangs being a White Banner unit, IA needs an infiltrating trooper/skirmisher - a lot of Yu Jing units act as counterparts to Panocenian ones, so we need someone like Locust.

    Likewise, IA should mirror Neoterra in the increased AVA of a flashlight bot, because playing without a Kuang Shi battery is going to be rough.

    I hope Xi Zhuang will be available in IA and linkable with Zhanshi, because Madtraps are great.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a reason why there couldn't be a HI with CrazyKoalas (this is one way to make Shang-Ji more attractive), tbh. MadTraps is a bit ISSy, IA should want the target dead rather than alive.
     
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  8. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    I believe it was mentioned somewhere that we would be getting a new thiccboi HI, maybe adepticon seminar?
     
  9. Shiwen

    Shiwen Commissar, Yu Jing Political Work Department

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    I was confident we'd see HI doctors and engineers, but the seeming-certain presence of Zhanshi (and their existing Yicheng & mech-engineer profiles) has made me a little more doubtful. And yet, even if the profile never arrives, I'll eventually have to convert a combat engineer Yan Huo.

    What DOES a Shooting Star do? Just uparmouring a Tiger would gain a little survivability but also increase cost. Is it some sort of suicide strike unit that tanks some AROs airdropping onto the board and then opens up with high Burst/templates to slaughter defenders? Could it also have MSV2 for dropping into the middle of a smoke cloud and doing the same thing but this time as typical YJ smoke+visor shenanigans, then going Suppressive as a tough nut to crack? Do THEY take the specialist roles, dropping where needed to grab objectives or save Invincibles from death and immobilization?

    When thinking about infiltration and skirmishing units, it may be worth thinking about what Invincible Army is going to be missing? Its entirely guesswork, but maybe the sectorial just doesn't have infiltrators (a reason why CB may have decided to leave the Daofei out of the sectorial despite them being Invincibles), with a focus on forward/mech deployment and AD units to push itself up the board without needing to spend as many Orders (which will be precious if you're trying to operate lists stuffed with HI).
     
  10. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    HI bikes!

    Unlikely but a man can dream. Speaking a bit more realistically, while I don't know what sorts of profiles they have, I'd love to see more done with "remote presence troops that aren't actually REMs" (e.g. Su Jian or Karakuri) as that's something unique to Yu Jing within the Human Sphere.
     
  11. Spooky

    Spooky Active Member

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    Can't remember where exactly I read it but it was mentioned in connection with the Daiyokai that during the uprising JSA had to leave their more advanced prototype behind.
     
  12. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    There are already 2W droptroops (Duroc) and effectively 2W ones (Fractaa and the Tohaa one) in the game, so a proper AD HI with respectable ARM should arrive sooner or later. Yeah, it would become a great DZ cleaner, leaving Tigers for button-pushing and hacking duties. Maybe throw a Panzerfaust on it to smack the wandering TAGs and a Heavy Flamethrower to terrify linkteams.

    It would suck, because ISS is already a sectorial with only 3 units starting outside the deployment zone: Ninja is AVA 1, Kanren does not deploy outside 8" from DZ (and you should not deploy him even there if you go second) and Garuda.
    Neoterra used to be a no fancy tricks army, but even they got Locust. I guess mechanized deployment could work as a compromise.
     
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  13. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    *usual tirade about Zhanshi in a non-banner sectorial*

    *awkward cough*

    Alright, I'll lay of my usual bugbear here (that is, that I a) hate Zhanshi and don't want them in an army until they get a cost fix and b) don't think they belong in IA due to background reasons) and go for a new reason not to do this.

    With JSA out of the picture, we not only down an excellent, cheap order provider (though also not one that would work with the theme or frankly the point cost need of the IA) but also our best engineer/doctor. We're in dire need of new specialists right now, and with the JSA gone and leaving a bunch of gaps, the IA is in a prime place to fix some of these basic roles. A new doctor and engineer unit alongside a cheap filler unit (and it needs to be cheaper than Zhanshi, hell, it needs to be cheaper than Keisotsu) is basically necessary for the health of the IA.

    This is why I'm hoping CB are taking this seriously and giving IA a cheap, remote line trooper in the 6-8 point range alongside some new, possibly combat-capable engineers and/or doctors to fill in some gaps left by the JSA leaving us.

    Sadly, we know the Daofei is actually out (unless CB are trolling us extra hard). Between CB saying the Daofei aren't in and their logo redesign placing them in White Banner, there is little hope we're getting our favourite HI infiltrator. This alone has honestly sort of pre-soured me on the IA as it is. Either way, expect them to get a hefty background re-write if this is the case because not having them in the IA with the current background makes zero sense, but here we are.

    Hac Tao is also complicated. It has already been placed in the White Banner as well, though unlike the Daofei it bears no new logo to indicate that it is 100% just for them. Further, outside the white mask (which I'll admit, is a pretty dumb distinction for what is and isn't in a sectorial) they don't make a lot of sense in White Banner since White Banner's thing seems to be to play the "traditionalist" role in the duology of our two StateEmpire Army sectorials. So there is a chance that this cutting-edge unit may see the light of day in IA, but currently we have no indications.

    We can surmise that the unit in the new artwork (that we assume is called the Shooting Star) will probably be in there as well for a couple of reasons. First, with the Tigers in there, we know this sectorial wont have AD as a trick that is scaled back or otherwise verboten. Second, it is a new HI unit and uses that combo orange/green scheme common on other IA HI. This means chances for it are strong.

    There is also news of another S5 HI unit in the works for IA, and in the past CB have said Yu Jing have another transforming HI on the way.

    Further, we know that CB have said in the past (though this was a while ago) that the IA would feature 5 new profiles. Now, in the brave new world of us no longer having JSA, this feels like it may be on the light side for a sectorial. So hopefully they've upped the number, though it at least gives us a place to put our expectations going in to it. Assuming the "Shooting Star" is one of them, that means we have at least four unreleased and unknown profiles to look forward to (but I'm hoping for more at this point since outside of the stuff we know that is in there, a lot of what we currently have would just make the IA feel like another soup list of a sectorial if it makes it in).

    In general we know (well, as much as we can know) that any unit currently bearing the [Unit Name] Invincible name will be in there. Shang Ji (whatever form its hopefully fixed version takes), Zuyong, and Yan Huo so far. We also know the Tiger Soldier is making a somewhat unexpected appearance (which helps slightly make up for the loss of the Daofei... but only a little).

    Beyond that, we can guess at the usual remotes (possibly having closer to ISS level remote availability instead of late-JSA remote availability), but there isn't really much else we know at this point.

    Wu Ming have always been a possibility since the Assault Corps are an eminently loan-able unit that generally makes sense more as a front line combat unit (the main reason they're in the ISS is a background-rooted one since, as prisoners, they're under the specific purview of the Imperial Service, but when used in a StateEmpire military operation, they fall under StateEmpire Army Command like most Imperial Service units).

    The main reason they don't make sense in IA is because... well, they already do what Zuyong do for the most part and IA doesn't need to mid-20's core-link HI (rather, they need cheap link-filler for Zuyong to allow them to perform on par with or exceed Wu Ming as a core link).

    But as you say, CB have shown to have some pretty specious reasoning for things being included and not being included in sectorials, so it is hard to tell where they will fall on anything. For all we know, the IA sectorial will include Mobile Brigada and Loup Garou such is the way CB sometimes come to what units "make sense" in a given sectorial.

    1) Alright, so from what we can see, it looks like IA are going to be our "hammer" sectorial in a way not even the sometimes brutish ISS are. Less of a focus on infiltrators and fast units, more aggressive pieces (like AD). Access to a lot of big guns and aggressive lieutenant options (now becoming a Yu Jing staple; hopefully IA get a CoC unit). If I were to predict based on this, I'm also guessing we may see some forward/mech deployment stuff in place of infiltrators and more Mimetism or ODD instead of Camo or TO making an appearance.

    2) This is going to be another make or break bit for the IA. Skirmishers give forces mid-field control and disruption. With the Daofei out, we lost a pretty important piece. However, Tigers can perform quick mid-field flanks with good skill and firepower (though they lack area control). Shooting Stars (assuming their inclusion) likely have a similar toolset (though hopefully with some twists). What IA could use is a Kanren or Moran-style skirmishing piece, that is, something more about area control and disruption than about sneaking up to objectives unseen and pushing buttons. That said, if I were being really bold, I'd say we should get an impersonation unit (since aggressive back-field disruption seems more IA's style than the more sedate mid-field control; subterfuge in IA should be a delivery method for face-punching, leaving mid-field button-pushing to things shot from orbit and make our sneaky stuff about disrupting enemy plans in their own deployment zone).

    3) I've always loved AD in Infinity. It is basically a second deployment phase, allowing you to see and react to the enemy after they've shown a bit of their own hand. The strength of Tigers is self-evident. They can flank in, have great firepower, efficient firefight skills (high BS+Mimetism) and access to weapons and load outs that perfectly compliment their role. About the only things I'd change on them are dropping the Paramedic (and replace it with a Doctor profile), adding an FO profile (because it seems weird to have a paratrooper without that as a skill option), and give them a KHD instead of an AHD (because it is abundantly clear at this point that the AHD is pretty pants for what it does). I also wouldn't mind a profile with access to mines or something along those lines either. The basic Tiger profiles are perfect for assault, but I have a feeling IA will lean on them for specialist duties and it is here that they are lacking some oomph.

    Shooting Stars? That is harder to tell. With Tigers already being great offensive pieces, just having a tougher Tiger would be boring. Something at around the Daofei to Hac Tao point bracket, some sort of super-elite drop trooper would certainly have its uses. Something sporting Full Auto, smoke grenades and a high enough PH to make AD4 a reliable option would certainly fill a much more aggressive role than even a Tiger would and I think is the sort of place the Shooting Star should aim for. Something along the lines of a super-heavy Rasyat instead of a super-heavy Tiger would be pretty neat. Give it access to some kind of specialist profile (maybe engineer?) and you'll have a profile both vanilla and the IA will want to take.

    4) In all honesty, CB's stingy handing out of Doctor and Engineer is pretty odd these days. With Doctor having superior levels, it no longer makes sense to lock factions out of the base ones to preserve Haqq's special snowflake status. It also doesn't make sense that only Nomads tend to otherwise field a lot of high-end specialists in direct combat roles. The IA is supposed to be elite, modern, and self-sufficient. Dropping some doctor and engineer profiles on combat units would be a must at this point.

    5) The Shang Ji is tricky because it currently has no role, and trying to just make it a Zuyong+ is doomed to make it, at best, a niche pick (assuming it can act as point in a Zuyong core or haris). My preference is to basically have it fill in a similar role to the lost and lamented Shikami that we had a model for for all of a month or two before the profile was taken away. In 2nd, it was our mobile, CQB, general purpose HI. I say amp it up, give it super jump, climbing plus, Mimetism, and a bunch of CQB weapons and have fun with just having a super-mobile elite HI specialist instead of trying to jam another basic, linkable HI in you Yu Jing where we already have enough of that. I want weird, wacky, wonderful HI spec-ops instead of just a dude in slightly superior armour. If they can re-write the Daofei's background, they can do it for the much less used and less popular Shang Ji and make it more than just the TIE Advanced to the Zuyong's TIE Fighter.
     
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  14. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    Zhanshi AVA:5 Fireteam Core
    Yicheng AVA:1
    Mech-Engineer AVA:2
    Zuyong AVA:Total Fireteam Core
    Shang Ji AVA:5 Fireteam Core, Haris, Duo
    "Shooting Star" AD HI AVA3
    Yan Huo AVA:4 Special Haris: MULTI HMG Yan Huo + 2 Zuyong
    Sun Tze HI AVA1 May join Zuyong, or Shang Ji Core
    Hac Tao AVA2
    Daofei AVA1
    Guijia AVA2 Fireteam Duo, may join a Duo or Haris of Shang Ji
    Chaiyi AVA1
    Weibing AVA2
    Husong AVA1
    Son-Bae AVA1 May join a core of Zuyong or Shang Ji
    Lu Duan AVA2
    Rui Shi AVA2
    Pangguling AVA2
    Yaozao AVA4

    That's my guess.
     
  15. Someone

    Someone Active Member

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    The Adepticon Seminar Q&A it was mentioned. Similar to the Blackjack, S5 but big as a TAG. You can see the video on the Riotgrrl Painting page on Facebook. It is discussed at the 1 hour mark.
     
  16. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

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    I guess another point is s5 isn't just about armour, in fluff terms a big tough breaching/spearhead unit would be pretty cool.
     
  17. Ten Thousand Arrows

    Ten Thousand Arrows Imperial Sage

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    We've also seen what looks like a new unit badge for the "ZhanHuo" which literally translates as "War Fire". My hope is that this is an S5 AD unit armed to the teeth with CQB weaponry, heavy shotguns/flamethrowers etc.

    I don't actually think the Shang-Ji would be that terrible if they could join a Zuyong team, they'd add a lot of variety to it. Maybe a CoC profile could be added? We'll see.

    Zuyong are one of the models that got me into this faction (Domaru were the others..) and I'm very excited to see what they'll get to support them, emphasising their role as line troopers. I would love to see a Zuyong dire foes character, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

    I'm a bit dissapointed that it looks like we're stuck with the Zhanshi, but it's too early to tell. I'm holding off on a few purchases until we know a bit more about the lineup.
     
  18. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    Actually... It's not. It's a base. Yu Jing's base. For the next campaign.

    Koni confirmed on Facebook that the new patches that were popping up in tournament packs were not "troops" but "places".
     
  19. Ten Thousand Arrows

    Ten Thousand Arrows Imperial Sage

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    That's what I get for thinking Yu Jing can have nice things.
     
  20. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the Invincible Army getting raped page after page and also losing the tech Siricon Valley of Kuraimoi in the Uprising is CB's way of indefinitely delaying the roll out the Shang Ji armour as IA's line troop, given their points cost doesn't allow it anyway.

    Yeah I am unsure why they decided to give Invincible Army a Blackjack when we have Yanhuos. Just give me what it takes to make a HI core list viable. And put the Daofei back in the fucking list for goodness sake.
     
    #20 the huanglong, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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