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The Ryuken-9 - ungrateful bastard edition

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Teslarod, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Disclaimer - I love playing JSA. CC is fun. And Mono CCW TO Infiltrating CC is fun squared.

    But I have developed serious doubts about
    the staple fixer Profile of the Uprising rework - the Ryuken-9 SMG.

    As optimized as their Profiles are - Ryuken tend to fall short in terms of return value for spending Orders on them. After a couple dozen games with them they have an array of slight annoyances compared to conventional Skirmishers.
    1. The spot where a Ryuken is really good is within 8" thanks to Mines &SMG. But you often need to stay away further to stay clear of DTWs, Mines and Perimeter Weapons.
    2. While you get that X-Visor/ODD combo, it often ends up making your opponent Dodge. Your lack of +3 Rangebands means you'll often roll 3 dice on 6/9 vs a single die ARO Dodge, BS Attack or Smoke Dodge on 11-17. It's extremely risky or often at best Order intensive to fight your way somewhere this way.
    Can't believe I'm saying this, but a BS11 Rifle Camo trooper has more punch than the Ryuken in the average midfield encounter. Saito has gotten a lot more Riflework done for me than the usually 2 Ryukens I run.
    3. Lack of Marker State and true Infiltration hampers a midfielder's most valueable qualities, taking advantage of the best deployment spots and getting in positive Rangebands is significantly harder to do without them.
    4. Not having a Specialist Option. Since Saito got stripped of his SO you'll need to replace him, simple as that. Not being able to do an unopposed Camo Move-Move to hold a Zone last minute as well as not being a Specialist are a downer. Suddenly you're competing with Yuriko, Aragoto and Ninjas.

    Their problems are particularily painful against spammy armies with a large midfield presence. Ariadna and Dashhat can easily overwhelm you in no man's land and it's hard to counter their asymetric approach.
    JSA and Ryukens do fine vs stuff like Tohaa, SP and Aleph, where their kit allows them to have an advantage against much more expensive troops (or entire Links/Triads).

    Overall they are still very good depending on matchup, so definitely still valid "list 2 material".
    Damn shame.
     
    #1 Teslarod, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
    barakiel likes this.
  2. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    You're not wrong. While the SMG is certainly very cheap for what it does, the comments that it's "better than a rifle" is typically a fallacy of players who don't play. The restricted range of the SMG is a huge factor, and the specialty ammo types don't matter at all if you can't win that f2f. As you say, even if you outrange an opponent, the simple combination of Dodge + Armor save means even basic opponents may require multiple Orders of hammering away at bad odds before you can squeeze a Wound through. And having to spend the extra 1-2 Orders maneuvering into the +3 band, where you open yourself up to return threats from direct templates, shotguns, etc. is dangerous.

    As a result, I really try not to rely on Ryuken-9 SMGs for active turn firepower. It always feels incredibly inefficient to spray at 9s (or worse, if your target has Camo Mimetism, attacking on 6s) and just hoping you squeeze a hit through. It contributes significantly to JSA's general sense of "requiring too many orders to achieve basic tasks."

    And while they're great in Suppressive Fire, a smart player will have no difficulty finding a way past through/past them. A single smoke-tossing Chain Rifle is typically going to trade with them, or at least force them out of Suppressive Fire, and that's really tricky.
     
    MikeTheScrivener and Teslarod like this.
  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    JSA has a lot of good troops that reward spending Orders on them in the right situation.
    But not a lot of frontal problem solvers like a Swiss Guard, Achilles, Spetznaz or Charontid. Coming up with answers to very straightforward questions might be their biggest problem to boot. Especially if that Keisotsu HMG eats a crit and leaves you scrambling for a different approach.

    If you're running a typical JSA list with Saito, Yojimbo, Rui Shi and a Keisotsu Link sporting a HMG and MSV2 Kempetai you'll need something more than that.
    I've actually been going back to Yuriko to have a capable Combi/Panzerfaust on top of her qualities as Engineer and Minelayer. She has a lot of overlap with Ryukens while costing almost the same and patches up multiple holes in a JSA list in the meantime.
    The most surprising winner has been the "new" Ninja FO. The KHD just can't fight at range, being vulnerable to Hacking can really bite you in the ass if you have to rely on him to push a button. My default choice to unlock REMs replaced the Ninja KHD with the Aragoto KHD, who does an amazing job at pushing buttons with the downside of being a challenge to keep alive.
    Solo Karakuri MK12s are another solution and about the only truly durable utility troop you can fit into a list.
    With how starved JSA is for some range the HMG TR Bot has been tempting as well.

    Really interesting how much the loss of Saito as a Specialist and the Total Immunity rework have impacted my JSA lists.
    My main gripe would be that I feel royally screwed with no good answer against some armies.
     
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