1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

The obsolete profiles

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Freki, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. Freki

    Freki Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    29
    Disclaimer: This topic is not about balance between armies

    So O12 has been released and the traditional question of power creep in Infinity was raised in my local FB community.
    The usual comparison of troops took place as it always does, and the main answer being you can't look at the profiles in a vacuum to assess an army balance. This lead me to think that unit power creeps still kills a bit of diversity in Infinity.

    The main point of contention that rose to my mind are comparing HIs:
    upload_2019-8-2_15-1-43.png
    upload_2019-8-2_15-2-19.png
    upload_2019-8-2_15-4-10.png

    The HMG loadout is very similar to one another and the point cost as well. The big difference is the obvious ODD, higher WIP (useful on a HI) and loss of one PH. For the bargain price of an extra 4 points!

    I don't have any problem with the cost of the Omega Unit.
    But I do with the one of those old HIs. Too many profiles in this game are subpar and it is a sad state to see them in. We all evaluate our army profiles and classify them between to take or not and many in our armies or sectorials belong to the "do not bring" category because we know they have fallen from grace when compared to the more recent additions to the game. An advised player will play is own strength, thus ditch those non competitive profiles in head to head match-ups.

    When was the last time a semi expert Vanilla PanO player brought an Orc?
    When was a USARF Minuteman last taken?

    The famous Mobile Brigada pain train doesn't sound so painful anymore when compared to some Hollowmen link or Riot Grrls link. When was the last time you saw one of those in the hands of an expert player?

    Those examples translate how power creep, without impacting the game balance tremendously, still has rendered some units obsolete, and in this case they happen to be about the first ones released with N3

    In the era of data and with ITS being set up, I am surprised there is not a data analyst at CB pushing for some regular revision in point cost of some units. Shouldn't a new season start be an ideal moment to resuscitate under used profiles and help provide wider options to the players?

    TLDR: some models are not taken out of their boxes because there is a general consensus of them being underpowered, and the list tends to grow over time because of more competitive options on the other side of the table appearing.
     

    Attached Files:

    ZlaKhon, the huanglong and Berjiz like this.
  2. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    57
    Honestly, I think this is less of a problem of Power Creep and more of a problem with some units needing buffs. The Orcs, for example, have always had to compete with all-star HIs like the Swiss Guard and the Aquila. Because of this, they were rarely taken.

    Now that we have these new factions coming out, the baseline HIs tend to be stronger since these factions have more limited options. Instead of having chaff filler units like the Orc, they cut the filler and only have solid options. In exchange, they are more narrow in focus and revolve more around their all-star units, with little to no redundancy. Their all-star units are also around the same strength as the Ace units from other factions, but since they have less units overall, they stand out more.

    So when the Orc is compared to these new "base vanilla" HIs in these new factions, it becomes even more clear that it's less about power creep, more about CB just needing to buff some older models. It doesn't help that the limited options in new factions leads to good list-building being way simpler, especially for new players. It makes the new factions appear stronger out of the gate, since it's harder to build straight up bad lists.

    Either way, we live in a world where people weren't taking Orcs before any of these factions came out. The Swiss Guard and Aquila are on par or exceeding the strength of these new units, and they always have. The Orc is just weak in general, instead of these new units being overpowered.
     
    DaRedOne, Abydog and Dragonstriker like this.
  3. Arloid

    Arloid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    56
    I don’t think the Omega can be compared to the standard no frills HI, if they were to ever get the fireteam options your paying 225 points just to field a unmixed fireteam as opposed to 165/175 for the brigada/orc...

    Honestly the Omega ticks up far more on the ‘toys’ allowance, from the quick look I had on O-12. I expect them to quickly fall apart after their 1-2 big pieces have been dealt with.
     
  4. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    746
    There is power creep, anyone can see that. That's pretty common on a lot of games, initial and more simple units are being replaced with new shinny and optimiced ones... and that does impact the balance. For example right now, outside of the top dogs, how many TAGs or powerful solo pieces are taken in your meta instead of Fireteams?
    CB know orcs and a lot of older profiles aren't viable in Vanilla anymore; they can be useful in some mixed fireteams but not much more. But for a business stand point it's interesting that older models get a bit behind, so the players are more willing to buy the new toys. That's kind of ok.
    The problem is when they go too far and mess the balance (not claiming that is happening here, but the powercreep lead to that and Infinity could be close).

    I'd love to see them revising older profiles, rules and giving more gameplay options and flavor to different sectorials and armies; but that doesn't seem likely at a great scale until a new edition...

    Don't underestimate O-12, these dudes can field a 16-18 regular order lists easily while still bringing a lot of punch; and some of the 20-30 points units are really dangerous. Don't sniff at the last army released in the powercreep times!
    Check this base, you have your DZ well covered with the warbands, all the smoke the epsilon may need, 12 regular orders (strategos) and still 140 points and 4,5 SWC to include whatever you want.
    Regular base
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    ALPHA Lieutenant (Strategos L2) 2 Light Shotguns, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    EPSILON HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GANGBUSTER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Light Shotgun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    1.5 SWC | 157 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    Berjiz and LaughinGod like this.
  5. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    107
    COnsidering how it's modern to have those mixed fireteams these days, it would not be surprising at all if they are wildcards or able to be mixed with cheaper units. For example see how you can mix ORC's, so their 5 man fireteam is not 200+ pts..
     
    LaughinGod likes this.
  6. Freki

    Freki Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    29
    My issue is not only the Omega, it is also the alternative HI links that came up that makes the MB or Orc core link so underwhelming. As I said when you see how powerful the other nomad links are for a lesser cost, you feel underwhelmed with those MB, one way or another.

    And don't focus too much on the example I gave. This is just a price point comparison on fairly similar profiles.
    What I am saying is that too many profiles and even units available are seeing very little action. Wouldn't season 11 be the perfect time to at least drop some points, rework some loadouts to make the game more fun?
    @Ogid did CB not release an Orc box just now? So the power creep to sell more does not hold much ground.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    4,875
    Likes Received:
    9,925
    For what it's worth, there are no longer any Sectorials where Orcs or Mobile Brigada are forced to take an unmixed Fireteam.
     
  8. Freki

    Freki Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    29
    And the only profiles that now may see some lights are the SWCarriers. All the others are more than meh.
    The Hollow Men is a beautifully designed HI unit. All the profiles can see the battlefield. Even the simple combi does not look stupidly priced and may get fielded.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    746
    That doesn't undermine my point. Orcs have been given a niche thanks to Fireteams and the new profiles they got in Varuna, so they now can be included in some sectorials, plus there are still a lot of coleccionist out of there that like to buy models just for painting them; and Orcs are very cool models. But they are still hot garbage in Vanilla and the new releases more cost effective.
     
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    4,875
    Likes Received:
    9,925
    Sorry, I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I'll bow out of the conversation.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  11. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    57
    The lack of TAGs / solo pieces compared to Fireteams has been a thing for years, and many steps have been taken to try to swing the balance towards the other direction. I also still see plenty of strong solo pieces like the Swiss Guard.

    Older units like Orcs need buffs, but you're citing issues that have been going on for ages. This has nothing to do with recent power creep, real or imagined.


    And frankly, nearly any faction can spam cheap-but-solid units to build up orders. This is nothing new.
     
  12. Arloid

    Arloid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    56
    Ariadna and namely Nomads can pretty much do the same warband trick, only thing really unique being the strategos.

    It’s strong, but also weak to crumble, it’s basically stronger Jaguars with a weaker Intruder. Some Varangian get picked off, some die to msv, others kill whatever gets in charge range.

    I’m pretty sure we will see it ain’t as powerfull as people make it while not being weak either.
     
    Ayadan likes this.
  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    746
    Jaguars is a fair comparison, Varagians can set up a coordinated order supressive fire to great defense in the DZ and the Berserker is great to trade with better CC models diving the DZ, plus they have the direct template and smoke in all profiles, but Jaguars can get cover and may be a bit cheaper if they give up the shotgun.
    The weaker intruder part is arguable. Intruder is harder to hunt in the reactive phase having a CAMO state, but it's much more expensive 42 versus 30 the HMG profile, and the Epsilon have Bioimmunity (so you won't risk the piece versus a lucky shock/viral critical); plus direct template weapon just in case. Also you won't want to advance the VG unless something nasty is near your DZ, they are there just to provide orders, smoke and DZ defense; there are a lot of other more useful pieces to advance.
    O-12 is powerful, their profiles seem very good and that let them reach high order counts while still being dangerous. I think they are going to overperform a bit; but we will see.
     
  14. Arloid

    Arloid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    56
    Honestly for a Vanilla faction I don’t mind them being above average, as long as they aren’t going to be unfairly unbeatable or like some factions/sectorials gonna lead the leaderboard all the time.
     
  15. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    57
    I forgot that they are basically Vanilla. Do they even have a fireteam available?
     
  16. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    292
    Not basically vanilla, they are a vanilla faction. They'll receive sectorials down the line.
     
    Werekill likes this.
  17. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2019
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    57
    Thanks! I wasn't really sure.

    So yeah considering how inefficient their orders will have to be to compete with Fireteams, I'm not seeing too many issues with this faction.
     
  18. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    292
    Their orders are still fairly efficient. Varangians are amazing cheerleaders with free impetuous orders to set up smoke, after all.

    And while their selection of units isn't as broad as the more established vanilla factions, it's a leaner cut one with no real profiles that are clearly intended for sectorial function. The other problem here is that other vanilla factions with units meant to shine in vanilla don't really get that same special optimization (or just plain manual point adjustments) for the most part. The Daofei is an amazing unit, but its cost is pretty reasonable compared to what it gets and what more standard HI get. But you can clearly tell that O-12 gets some pretty notable cuts on its costs, and that's what bothers me.
     
    meikyoushisui and Ogid like this.
  19. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    1,941
    @Freki Do Gamma to Azra'il, Sogorat and Yanhuo next!

    [​IMG]
     
    #19 the huanglong, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
    Berjiz and meikyoushisui like this.
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,607
    Likes Received:
    6,903
    Hexa vs Lynx is a lower hanging fruit ;)

    ...and a very good argument that CB really should take the time to update all older profiles
     
    DaRedOne, Section9, Berjiz and 5 others like this.