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The Lizard, or why I became unsure whether I play the right Sectorial

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by KoenigLeberwurstIII, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. KoenigLeberwurstIII

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    So I am one of those players who is very fond of his TAGs and have played tons of successfull games with the Lizard in Bakunin or the Szalamandra in Vanilla. But especially the Lizard in Bakunin made me worry about a particular thing: To me it seems that almost every faction has a "standard requisition tag" with arm8, bs14, multi hmg, flame thrower and 3 strength, sometimes with some minor faction boons like panos +1bs or yu jings cc tax. Beeing around 90 points the usually shape the list a lot and so the question that rose up was which section has the best other things to support their standard tag.

    To me the most important things are the engineers, the killer hackers and the defensive li link team that are seen in most TAG lists. Together with an objective grabber they already fill 9 out of ten spots in a limited insertion list. And I startet to feel like bakunin is not that good of a choice in this case. Moderators are not fantastically good, zero khd does his job but is far from outstanding and while having superb WIP I don't seem to get my clockmakers zondbot quickly enough to a fallen or immbilized Tag to make it worth it.

    Do you think that other factions or sectorials do a better job at this kind of lists? Are these kind of lists even worth it at all?
     
  2. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Bakunin is fine for it.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I prefer Lizards in Vanilla. Basically because Moderators are trash. So what you lose by dropping the link you more than make up for with the variety of vanilla.

    But, yes, Bakunin is find at it.
     
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  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, your problem.is Moderators are terrible. Lizard is fine apart from the sculpt.
     
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  5. KoenigLeberwurstIII

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    I actually came to love my clunky lizard sculpt! It fits the lore of a makeshift tag somehow and is one of the few where I can actually imagine a pilot having enough space to move for its limbs to control one. It is just all little ragTAG..

    (please excuse the horrible pun..^^)
     
  6. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    Bakunin LI doesn't really come together... all of Bakunin's best units are cheap, so when you have to average 30 points a dude you wind up with five Riot Grrls or a bad list.

    When I run the Lizard it's always with two order groups for Deadly Dance, Show of Force, and Looting and Sabotaging.

    Stuff that works well with the Lizard, in my experience:

    Morlocks (Lizard gets lots of attention, take 2-3 morlocks just to guard it)
    Custodier HD+ (White Noise for more efficient killing)
    Meteor Zond (with the custodier, to target stuff for HGL)
    Bran do Castro (use the Lizard to physically block LOS to Bran)

    Stuff that doesn't work very well:
    Zero KHD (not enough ARO strength to protect Mr. Lizard, not helpful enough)
    Clockmaker (too expensive, 75% success rate is not high enough for manned TAG IMO)
    Zoe & Pi-well (way too expensive, Zoe *really* can't cover for the lizard in any meaningful way)

    I tend to not worry about status stuff (glue, hacking) on the Lizard because I have to bury his ass in my DZ anyway for fear of possession. It doesn't come up often.
     
  7. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I love the model it just needs to be scaled up.
    edit: honestly it might make a good Gecko proxy. Althou the models are my fav part of the Geckos so that ruins the point.
     
    #7 loricus, Jun 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2019
  8. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    I have a conversion project going along these lines and it's turning out pretty cool. I hacked up an old Salamander and added its waist to the Lizard's to make him about a head taller.
     
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  9. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    @OP I think the problem you are having has to do with how you are approaching Tags in Nomads. When I play my Pano or my Onyx and I am running tags, I do what you say. The TAG is the main star and the rest of the list is made to support the TAG. That is because Jotums and Cutters and the Sphinx are such good models, they can carry a game.

    Nomads do not have this type of TAG because of their fluff. Their tags are still very scary as all TAGs are, but they are older, less expensive, and less important. And I feel in Nomads you need to play them as such. Take less support and resign yourself to diversifying threats instead of having an awesome do everything TAG. Make more use of its board presence to affect the game than its actual firepower.

    As an example, Here is a Limited Insertion list I have been working on with pretty good results so far. It won’t work in every mission of course.

    Heavy Armor──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]10 LIZARD MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / . (2.5 | 87) [​IMG] LIZARD PILOT Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. () TASKMASTER Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, CrazyKoalas / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 47) TASKMASTER Red Fury, Pulzar, CrazyKoalas + TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 53) ZOE & PI-WELL undefined. (0 | 47) [​IMG] ZOE (Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Stop!) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28) [​IMG] PI-WELL Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 19) MODERATOR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) MODERATOR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) ZERO (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) ZERO (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) 5.5 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    The moderators are there to protect my LT. I don’t even bother linking them because the first thing I do is put them all in suppressive fire with a combined order.

    Zeros are there to be annoying with mines and then go grab objectives later.

    Zoe and Pi-well cause they are awesome. Pi-well counters a lot of camo armies you’d see in LI and Zoe is just efficient. No protectikn for her like you’d see in normal lists but that’s ok. No risky remotes either so it’s not a problem.

    Double Taskmasters to hold the flanks and put pressure on the opponent. They are game winning threats in their own right and the opponent will have a hard time deciding what to deal with, TAG or two pseudo TAG HI.

    The reason this list works is because I don’t care about losing my TAG. It will do its job and it will Kill a lot but it will almost always die or I will make the pilot ditch it when the situation looks bad to keep the order. Without needing to spend points on support, still have 200ish pts of good stuff after it to win the game with.
     
  10. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    This is very true. Manned TAGs are a resource that you burn over the course of the game to get stuff done. Travel light, move fast, and roll against that 8 ARM.
     
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  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't work.

    Even if the Pilot is not-null if the TAG is null you lose the order.
     
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  12. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    When I said ditch I meant dismounting before the tag is in a null state. Usually I will do this when it is on the last wound and it doesn’t look like the TAG will survive anymore firefights and it’s not worth suiciding against something. If I take the HGL grenade launcher I’m less likely to do this admittedly.

    You are totally correct though and they could still kill the tag If they want to deny the order, but usually I’ll back away out of los before dismounting. If they want to spend multiple orders to deny my 1, I am ok with that.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Why bother spending the order dismounting then?

    Why not just slap it on Suppression and let your opponent waste orders fighting it? There's fair odds it'll take more than 1 order to kill and you might get lucky. Nomads are rarely so hard up for specialists that you desperately need to keep the Spec option around and it's not highly likely that they'll drop you straight to Dead anyway.
     
  14. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    Personal Preference I guess. I’d prefer to take the pilot out before the tag dies so that I still have the specialist and it’s in a state that generates orders next turn rather than losing the tag and the order and then having to spend another order next turn to take the pilot out.
     
  15. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    The HGL Lizard is also great for Unmasking. Very good at splatting things from afar.

    Agreed, although I don't find a ton of need for Bran because I run two Zeros for flank and hacker defense on the Lizard. One of them is often an AHD because having the ability to IMM the TAG if it gets Possessed is really, really useful. there are a lot of Nomad players around here and it seems like every Nomad player loves TAGjacking (me too of course).

     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I can see that if you *really* need the specialist. But very little pushes a Lizard Dead in 1 order. Less a Lizard on Suppression.

    I just think you're underselling the potential tax on your opponent (particularly if they need to kill the Lizard outright to remove the threat of the Pilot).

    Obviously it's all mission and context dependent but ultimately a TAG is 1 order. And personally I'd prefer to see my opponent trying to kill that 1 order through ARM8 Suppression Fire rather than ARM0. Particularly if I've done my job right and taken out the piece that did the previous 2 wounds.

    Other than that though, I completely agree on your take of TAGs in Nomads: they support your list rather than your list supporting them. The exception being a Lizard + Meteor list, that's one of the few archetypes you can build around the TAG (it's not that great vs really good opponents).

    I think your list illustrates my point about Vanilla vs Bakunin for Lizard lists though. Other than the TM Duo that list can be run in Vanilla, and giving up the TM Duo for a Kriza or similar is probably not a big difference.
     
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  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    Lolwut?

    Id absolutely rate the zero khd clock maker and zoe/piwell for a lizard list.

    Zero+Zoe especially given 1) shes an engineer (75% is about the same odds as a pano end with rerolls, higher actually)
    2) a good hacker for buffing units like TR HMGs that are supporting your tags
    3) has access to sensor FO in piwell for sweet sweet satlocks (yes EVO)
    4) can take plenty of zondbots

    And if you are taking zoe the zero isnt then just supporting the tag its supporting her. (EVO the zero as well)

    But seriously zero khd zoe piwell zondbots amd an EVO and tr hmg are core units in a lizard list IMO. Then build out with 2 flashbots. Moreloks and more Zeros to taste.

    The tag isnt just supported by the list in these instances. Its also a list supporting the list as its primary gun fighter (backed up by a buffed tr hmg)
     
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  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    At that point screw the Lizard Pi Well is all you need.

    I've been slowly becoming a fan of the Lizard+Prowler list that has some of the usual support suite like KHD zeros, morlocks, custodier etc. Lizard does Lizard things as well as playing the part of distraction carnifex while the prowler sneaks up on stuff (normally their back line) and starts making a real mess. hopefully this means that your opponent needs to redirect resources to deal with it thereby taking pressure off the lizard.
     
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  19. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    Neither piwell nor a tr HMG can bully their way past a linked msv msr or a linked ML reliably enough to be a primary answer
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's what the Meteor + Vertigo are for. #makeguidedgrearagain

    But there's something to love in a Lizard + Meteor list.