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The Growing Prevalence of NBW and JSA's Position as a Close Combat Sectorial

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Weathercock, Dec 17, 2019.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    So, simply put, JSA is an army made to excel in close quarters. On a conceptual level, this is meant to come at the hefty cost of long-range competence.

    Now, JSA is dated against more modern releases in several ways. But where I'm concerned is within JSA's own self-imposed niche and obsession, and do do with the increasing popularity of a rule that works to circumvent that. Much like the Immunity/NWI 1.9W combo that's been popping up, I've been noticing the Natural Born Warrior rule becoming much more prevalent as well.

    While CC is more often about bullying poor fighters than fair engagements, I still can't help but to feel sad when I look at Kendrat brings to the table compared to Mushashi, for example. That's not to say that other factions shouldn't have their close combat badasses. I'm just wondering if other people take issue with this rule becoming more notably common, and whether it feels like JSA might be left behind in that regard.

    Admittedly, I don't have as much experience playing JSA as I would like, but am I right to be concerned?
     
  2. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    No.


    Okay, maybe I will elaborate a wee bit more: NBW is currently on a few units in the game - just shoot those guys. Sure if Shinobu ends her turn engaged with an avatar and kendrak is nearby you may have a bad time, but it's not an insurmounta or challenge by any means. Berserk is far more common and frankly even scarier a prospect - sure your oniwaban took out my taigha but....

    NBW is marginally disruptive but it will just require a few small tweaks to playstyle if it starts to become relevant. As it stands you're not too worried about kendrak or Snr Massacre engaging you on your active turn are you?
     
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  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. To add to that, how do you feel about NBW's function as a rule itself, and its growing prevalence (especially the Berserk+NBW combo)?

    Personally, I really don't like the rule. While Berserk is definitely scary to deal with, its function as a check or counter to other CC units feels much better designed as a game mechanic (I'd say that it's actually one of my favourite rules, just in terms of design, and I'd like to see it used more creatively). NBW just feels like a cheap one-up. It feels like something that came out of a game involving wars with hammers.
     
  4. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Natural Born Warrior has existed on units like Wulvers since the original 2nd Edition Human Sphere book. What about it bothers you compared to other CC skills?
     
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  5. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I know it's been around a while. I still don't like it. For all the tables and mechanisms for CC (although I do think CC needs some significant reworking and consolidation for N4), this just cancels it without any other interesting interactions.

    In general, I tend not to like 'nullifier' rules that don't do anything else to actually expand gameplay.
     
    #5 Weathercock, Dec 18, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
    toadchild likes this.
  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    You don't want to be engaging CC combatant, regardless of what type of CC they have. CC is great when you get overwhelming odds. Whenever you face another trooper that is good in CC, it turns into a bit of a coin flip.

    Imo, warbands with direct template weapons are still scarier to our CC specialist than other CC specialist.
     
  7. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
    Warcor

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    @cleverhandle has it.

    It's not an issue. Gank gankable things.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just saying, but against a Ninja or Oniwaban, facing something with NBW is identical to facing something with MA3.

    Mushashi should be the only one who cares, because usually against CC monsters, MA5 is better for him (the same is usually not true for Shinobu)

    Unless someone chooses the wrong skill level.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much this.

    You shouldn't be getting into CC with CC monsters. Shoot them, and CC the shooty things. (It's about the only 40k 'tactic' that applies to Infinity)
     
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  10. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
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    I'd also heavily debate JSA being a close combat sectorial. They're an army that has the option to Close Combat (it's another tool at their disposal), but if you're relying on CC to be your primary source of damage, you're going to be disappointed.
     
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  11. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Honestly I'll be very interested to see how code:one handles CC. Given it's supposed to be rules-light, I can see it having a major overhaul in due course
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if CC doesn't exist at all in Code: One. Whether it gets an overhaul in N4 is going to be very interesting.
     
  13. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    I just want Assault to be free from needing LoF. And that Guard, Protheion, Martial Arts and such skills be handed Assault like candy.
    For the most part, CC is ok and works for me... Actually, I'd like that Martial Arts L5 would be actually better than L4 and that L4 would be better than L3, etc.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Guard has a very good progression.

    Assault to be a common skill and an improved version of Assault removes the negative MOD, maybe? I personally like the LOF limitation as a fairness measure, but the MOD usually kills it (together with not being compatible with Berserk)
     
  15. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Removing LoF requirement would help to cut corners and tone down the safety that a DTW has there. It would also help some pieces enter in CC, therefore upping their viability and diversity in list making. The fact that you have to be in LoF already, means you're already trading shots or at closing distance (that Assault will rarely be your best option), for the most part. I think that the negative MOD is good (and fluffy: since you're rushing to someone, your attack is less precise). I like it, I wouldn't change that.

    Without the need for LoF there's still the same margin for error (if you declare it, but stop short), but it would give a meaningful choice between charging like a barbarian or spending more orders to sneak in stealthly, if you have both options.

    Right now, if you want to remove an ARO piece guarding the corners or a supp fire platform, you have to get into LoF, F2F some ARO(s), live through them and if the enemy did too, then you can declare Assault, which can be your downfall if you're 1'' too far. Without LoF, you'd only need to get as close as possible and then declare it, measure and see if you're going to die 1'' away to all the AROs.

    Just my two cents.
     
  16. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    Grouping assault with more CC skills would be welcome.

    Removing the LOF restriction would basically function to remove (or reduce the use of) the "my first short skill is to move out of LOF, ignoring stealth - your ARO options are do nothing, change facing or reset - with my second skill I walk into CC unmolested" interaction that some people have a problem with.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nah. As far as I can tell, the big problem people have with CF is "I move Tarik behind you without Stealth, please Change Facing so I can keep shooting you in the back until you're dead"

    Walking into CC largely unmolested happens rarely and really needs to not be gated behind special skills.

    At the same time, should one of these CC monsters get into CC, that's it. Game over. The CC incompetent really really need this reprieve. Can't keep adapting the entire game on the assumption that your opponent is always a Taigha Creature.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I really don't get why people have such a big issue with this. It's literally the only way for some units to deliver themselves into CC safely, and it's your own fault if you got flanked from behind.
     
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  19. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    I feel that a simple fix to the stealth issue would just be letting people delay their ARO if someone declares an action without stealth & within their ZoC, but not in their LoF (with the caveat that you can't do this with LoF ignoring weapons/hacking, otherwise jammers would become even more bonkers) - similarly to ARO against camo, you'd lose the option to do anything if they don't then come into line of sight/attack you. If even basic infantry have the presence of mind to hold fire when they realise someone is moving around in camo, they should also not fly off the handle the moment they hear someone around the corner accidentally kick a can.

    Ninja edit: Re-reading meikyoushiui's post made me realise that this would kind of screw with getting into CC for a lot of units - maybe also have moving into CC with stealth from outside of ZoC not trigger AROs?

    In a similar vein, my proposed fix to assault would simply be to change it from a full order move+move+attack to a short skill move+attack (although I recognise that this doesn't work if you don't also like my suggestion for delays inside ZoC, as you'd be able to move behind someone without stealth and force them to change facing, whereas before they'd be able to dodge). It'd fix the issue of LoF, as you'd be able to move round a corner to get LoF, but it'd also give you the ability to, say, climbing plus up a wall to get near someone on a roof and then assault. I feel that troops that have the assault skill should basically always be charging into honourable combat instead of sneaking their way in, and this change would promote that pretty well. (Unless you're going against a CC specialist and you can't bear the negative mod, using assault would almost always be a good option)
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with the ninja/Tariq throwing a rock to distract the enemy into looking the wrong direction?\

    (though perhaps it would help if the Change Facing shenanigan was described that way in the rules...)