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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. SaladSnek

    SaladSnek Member

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    Maybe units caught by the AOE of an impact template shouldn't need to face to face?

    This from someone who loves destroying fire teams with missile launchers mind you but I'm not sure it needs to be this strong
    What if the main target of a guided attack or plasma would need to beat the shooters roll but the AOE was treated like a direct template.

    It would still force a dodge action from fire teams that don't want to be decimated but a bit more likely that the dodge means anything.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That does mean that you can no longer use BS Attack or Hacking to avoid the AOE of a Plasma Rifle if you're the secondary target. Also creates a special case where the main target is exempt from the template's area of effect even if they are in the area.
    Not sure that's desirable.
     
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  3. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Never liked the BS attack to avoid template thing - made more sense for me when they had to dodge.
     
  4. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose Sand Cats Tactical Security LLC

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    I know this is a long shot but, in N3 Haqqislam, the Hakims used to have Regeneration (with Shock Immunity nested in Regeneration), but in N4 they no longer have Immunity: Shock. Is it by design or just an overlook?
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Probably by design, Regeneration became alot stronger in N4. Senore Massacre was also left without shock immunity also.
     
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  6. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    The thing about something like a grenade being thrown at you and your team in real life is anyone of you can shoot the guy throwing the grenade in order to stop him and if he throws it faster than any of you can shoot, then all of you have a problem. This is an argument for allowing different AROs in a team, cause some people such at shooting and others are better at dodging.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    You can already declare different AROs, it just kicks the minority out of the team until the start of their players active turn.

    This means you can use a Grenade to disrupt a group of enemies, but if you don't push the advantage fast enough they'll have time to regroup, which sounds pretty much exactly one of the things grenades and template should be useful for.
     
  8. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Right. But people have problems with some aspects of fireteams. Something that grenades can do in real life which only smoke grenades get in this game is, targless. Except for the sake of protecting markets and hidden deployment, I'd think, place gre made template so that it effects an enemy model even if not looking at the model, just the point on the ground. This would help grenades a bit more at least. If CB does away with fireteam bonuses, I hope they compensate grenades in this way. Obviously some troops like werewolves will be worrisome. But a slight point increase can accommodate that I believe. And they'd still have to manage to get close.
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Isn't that called Speculative Fire? Pretty sure it already exists.
     
  10. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Except, if the model throwing the grenade is looking at the point on the ground where he is throwing it like how a smoke grenade is thrown (functionally no different) then they shouldnt apply a -6.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    That would be brilliant for me as an MO and Ariadna player, Dart and Mendoza moving to a sliver out of LoF and yeeting EM or Fire grenades on a 16, or Doggos with bog standard grenades on a 19! With the only reaction available to the enemy a Dodge-3?

    Yeah, I see major problems there, especially if we're trying to avoid scenarios where the defender's only option is Dodge+Pray.
     
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  12. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and there are other things to mitigate that. It's strange for me because I got into this game in N2, and each book has progress but then also doesnt. And all the intuitive stuff has always been flawless till it interacted with something that wasnt built intuitively for whatever reason. And as far as I can tell, the less quantum and abstract CB makes the game the better, it just requires more specificity and CB letting go of a couple of their die hard beliefs about what makes their games special and unique. Let's take the new FAQ leaning a little more toward cant declare till requirement is met, I would prefer that for everything, I wouldn't have even made this post if they applied requirement before declaration. But they didn't, which is why the other guy felt it necessary to create all the threads he did that are all slightly related because of the FAQ. CB is still trying to hold onto bits and pieces of no premeasuring and no trapping the reactive trooper in tough situations but that's because the way they designed their game forces reactive troops to be so weak. With out hands tied, we are forced to come up with ideas that fit their narrative but breaks other parts of the game. I'm a firm believer in the simpler the better, and intuition often if not always is simple. All of this kind of works in gaming like physics works in reality, it just works. And people can get hung up on the math but saying something like an object in motion stays in motion or the law of opposites are still truism even if we dont explain the math in them.
     
  13. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    I feel like the removal of nested shock immunity made many regen profiles (Hakim, Zayedan, etc.) much more difficult to use. You end up paying for a skill that is frequently ignored due to the proliferation of shock ammo.

    I had this exact same idea a few weeks ago. Once of the things that makes pitchers and smoke grenades so good is that they can place their target anywhere within LOF without taking an penalty to burst or MOD. I think implementing targetless on all grenade weapons would make burst 1 offensive grenades have much more utility than the odd ARO hail mary. Removing the +3 band for all targetless weapons (similar to how CB removed the +3 band on LGLs) would also prevent the BS attack target number from being substantially larger than the dodge target number.
     
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  14. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Dude, thank you, that is actually much much better. PH 16 is tolerable against Dodge 14-9 and still within 8 inches which means you had to get past, Snipers, Missiles, mines and Suppression Fire..
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    13-16 vs 7-13 is way too high odds for a no-risk attack. Getting past AROs and SuppFire is trivial for troopers with grenades that also have Infiltration, Camo, AD, Smoke, etc. Plus these troopers already have the best weapon to use against Suppressive Fire, grenades.

    Right now grenades are great at two things, punishing bunched up enemies and forcing troopers out of Suppressive Fire, this gives them a useful niche, and fits the verisimilitude of the role those weapons play in combat.

    From a holistic standpoint you want players to engage mostly with the main mechanic, F2F rolls where both troopers are at risk, anything that deviates from that needs to be inherently higher risk (DTWs, Berserk) a reward for clever play and positioning (attacking from out of LoF/ZoC) or at odds reduced enough that it only becomes worth it in specific cases (Speculative Fire).

    We saw issues with too-reliable indirect fire in N3 with linked X-Visor GLs, and currently with Spotlight+Guided. If we add in Dart and Duroc shelling troopers on 13/16 as a Short Skill you're just making already excellent units even more oppressive.
     
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  16. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with you mostly but currently, things have their own problems and I believe balance is off because many things have been adjusted in a vacuum but weren't really accounted for in the whole of the game. As for the GL reference in N3, as Maud said, the fix for that was no +3 range. Right now grenades are a descent ARO option and so so for active turn. If grenades +3 range were changed to 0 and they were given the targetless key word with the requirement that the template touches a model, then it just changes the emphasis of when and where grenades are used. Fire teams being the reason why troops are bunched together and yet dont have Suppression fire? I think problems lie elsewhere and not with grenades as is or as suggested. However grenades seem too circumstantial and only a few troops as you've mentioned get to start up that close. With only 0 and -3 ranges, appropriate fireteam adjustments and as you put it "clever play and positioning". A 0 rangeband instead of +3 will make spec fire harder but this will make attacking people hiding behind corners with template weapons easier but not too easy because it's still just a 0 range band instead of +3 and anyone effected by the template would still get to Dodge...
     
  17. Muad'dib

    Muad'dib Well-Known Member

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    Unlike N3 speculative fire, the proposed targetless change would still require you to have LOF to the point you are throwing at. As such, one can counter the tactic through deployment - either deploy you unit at the corner of the building so you can get LOF on the attacker - or deploy far enough around the corner that the template can't effect you. Nothing like the current Spotlight+Guided problem, especially a successful dodge would probably let you move beyond the effective zone of the blast template.

    Separate to this change, I would also favor making grenades disposable weapons.
     
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  18. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this. Exactly exactly what mitigates any problem.

    About disposable. I'd be fine with it only if we return the +3 range band for both launchers and regular. Then of course an argument will be made for disposable smoke grenades and then disposable ML and Rockets. Which again, I'd be fine with cause of the level of realism but then I'd want all those troops to have secondary weapons like a rifle and cost adjustments sooo, not in an FAQ change for sure but definitely a season change :smile:

    That being said, that would be a lot of disposable stuff to keep track of.
     
  19. Kestril

    Kestril Active Member

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    Hello! I've found the thread to give my two cents after coming back to infinity since the end of N2/the start of N3. Apologies if this has all been said and said better before, but I do feel the urge to share regardless.

    N4 has much more streamlined rules, which I do like, especially de-nesting all the stuff like veteran. It's really easier to get an idea for what a model does, and understand what an opponents model does
    However, I was puzzled when I didn't get to shoot ARO when someone dodges into a trooper's vision. As ARO's are declared after the first order, and I can't declare a shoot as my trooper can't see the troop to shoot quite yet. Huh. I thought this was the game where it was always my turn?

    On Camo: Fire doesn't remove camo? Camo/ODD was strong last edition and now a soft-counter to it has been removed. I guess it's stronger. What's that? Oh, MSV3 doesn't ignore the token state anymore and they removed sniffers. I can't believe I'm saying this but it looks like the already-oppressive camo seems like it got stronger.

    Also, armies that have access to ODD (Mimetism -6 now), they become even harder to deal with by the low-tech armies as the soft counter (a flamer) was removed.

    Boarding shotguns: That said, there are templates everywhere now with the boarding shotgun change. I don't like it, as it turns infinity into more of a game about template trading and less about positioning and risk. Personally, I'd give boarding shotguns something else and let the flamethrowers, chain rifles, and nanopulser equivalents to the templating.

    Links need a look at again. I like links in N3. They had okay balance. If my opponent wanted the commanding stats of BS 16 in a riot GRRL link you had to pay for all the riot GRRLs. Meanwhile, I was happy with making my okay briscards good, or my bad metros very points-efficient. This gave every unit profile a place in the link if not the list, as a specialist option may be pricey on it's own, but if it's in the link that gives the squad some flexibility to do objectives, it was nice to figure out what a good price-for-performance link was and then construct a list around that.

    But now there are wildcards. Look, I may have played a game against the wildcard unknown ranger and his four 8-point chainrifle buddies. I'm not really fighting a link, I'm fighting a TAG with b2 in the reactive turn and Sixth Sense. I have no problem with some units being really, really good, as it's fun to figure out how to avoid or take out the asymmetric heavy-hitters in an opponent's list, but as I look into building lists for sectorial all the advice is to buff up one wildcard pointman or ARO piece. This homogonizes play and makes all the sectorial feel same-y. I liked links better when they were all the same unit and forced some tough choices and trade-offs. I liked having to pick and between the raw punch of loup-garous versus the flexibility of briscards. Now, it seems that's not the case anymore and link teams have lost their flavor and purpose and just become a stathammer. That's not what I come to infinity for, and so I've picked up a vanilla faction for now.

    Total immunity is big now, and exotic ammo is just okay. - From what I remember, you could work around TA with rare ammos like T2 or E/M. This gave those oddball guns an additional purpose. Now their scope is so niche that unless you know your matchup it's just better to go with the cheaper, more abundant options. Likewise, it cripples the ability of some factions to respond to the 2W NWI models. I say this as someone who savored durocking people after a few introductory games.
     
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  20. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Ehhh, I think you are sweating the small stuff.

    Fire was the softest counter to camo. Direct templates in general and CC are much better 'soft counters'. Losing 'burnt' doesn't really affect camo very much at all and isn't an issue. I say this as someone who thinks the mimetism rule is total trash and should have a distance or cover requirement baked in. Plus the shotgun template spam you mention is a muuuuch harder downgrade to mimetism than fire ever was!

    Similarly, having random guns 'counter' TA is small fry. Only Viral could ever really hurt those units. The same counter applies now as before - non flash pulse AROs of whatever type.

    The other stuff I more or less agree on. If I was going to give a reason for being unhappy with the game though, the current missile meta definitely supersedes them though. Never been less interested in the game...
     
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