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The Avatar points hike is wrongheaded.

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's fluffy. In-universe Loup Garous use flashbangs and adhesive launchers because they work against dogfaces. Also it would just provide more counterplay for the bears. However, it would make McMurrough less braindead to use so probably goes against the core design directives.
     
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  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    And yet it's an NPE when an ARO Warcor or bot flashes your whole assault down. It's dumb af, especially when it's not a specialized unit like Loups.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Not all NPEs are bad for the game. Also, just shoot the WarCor with a Spetznaz first.
     
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  4. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Thing is that the bear doesn't worry about a lot of aro pieces on a standard board. It's got smoke coverage, good doge, cautious move and heavy gunners in the toolkit to either cross gaps or have a hole punched for it. People don't like the bear because of how good it is at crossing the board for such a miniscule cost.
     
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  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Nobody gets to play the Bear and complain about how the Bear would theoretically be worse if the rules were different, which they aren't.

    Anyway glue should work v Total Immunity, obvs
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure they can. Why not?
     
  7. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Just saying "bears have high PH and smoke, so they don't care about most ARO" is a very poor first level analysis.

    If the bear's owner gameplan is to FtF AROs with your high PH, they're going to come out behind way more often than not. Bears are still only on a single dice, and while they have a high target number, the ARO trooper also does (no vis mod, no cover).

    Even if the bear takes less damage from a ARO because of Total Immunite, if you manage to get a wound on a bear before they start getting in relevant range, they'll have a good chance to trade with the first or second thing they attack.

    It's pretty order intensive for a bear to make its way across the board and get into a relevant range if you setup some amount of ARO. Bears are significantly more expensive than other cheap warbands, so you don't want to just trade with anything.

    If the Ariadna opponent player spends 5-6~ orders to trade their bear with a couple of your cheap models, you're coming out way ahead.
     
  8. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    I know. They maybe only have to deal with a couple on the way in to smash something important by the time you factor in smoke, cautious move, dodge engaging etc. They're a similar piece to UFK in that they're a guided missile that is very hard to stop. If the opponent leaves out a bunch of rifles on aro duty to stop the bear,they've left lots of easy pickings for long range firepower in the list to massacre.
    As the ariadna player they force an opponent to deal with the threat of one. For the cost they're insanely good at causing chaos.
     
  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Why would you leave rifles out for ARO duty? Leave good ARO up for ARO duty.

    Bears are amazing, but they're troop meant to trade and they need to trade with multiple things to be worth it, they're not 6 points warbands. It's quite order intensive to achieve, moving a bear up the board does not further any of the mission objective, it doesn't further board advantage, it's an incredibly strong "missile", but it is also just that.
     
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  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    We're talking across each other here. Snipers and missiles are only marginally better than rifles at aro duty for a bear as they have a higher natural damage code, but are limited by swc. Unless the board is awful, they can't provide universal aro coverage so probably one or both can be avoided or smoked past . If you want to take it out in aro you've got to hit with a lot of shots to force it to make saves which means those rifles, pistols, smgs etc have to be in a position that they can oppose the bear. If you don't leave them out, then the bear can just advance and do its thing largely unopposed.
    Just because you can go on a missile run with it doesn't mean you have to, it's just an option if the opponent has something tasty to smash. Witholding it for later is just as valid as an early rush in some games.
     
    #50 csjarrat, Aug 7, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
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  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Just because the missile hits the bear a bit better than a rifle doesn't mean you don't want the missile up for ARO, it also doesn't mean you want more rifle up for ARO.

    Rifle will get trashed by anything other than the bear.

    You keep putting ARO that are good as ARO, and even if they're worse versus the bear, they're still doing their job. Bears hate being contested by ARO, it makes them incredibly order inefficient.

    You're not going to take out the bear with your ARO piece, but if you can make them waste a bunch of orders by trying to avoid your ARO or FtF you with Dodge, then you've succeeded. Also if you can do 1W on them, then they won't be able to trade with a whole lot when they reach your DZ.

    Bear just punish null deployment.

    Just keep putting up ARO that are not shit and those ARO will still be one of the best tool to mitigate bears. Don't start putting up a bunch of shit ARO to try to contest the bears.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, you can, but don't overwatch the whole table. I've kiled bears with Foxtrot + Grunt rifles and shotguns before when it got past my table line before and then I had multiple troopers with small arms shoot it.
     
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  13. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    It's almost as if you had to deploy in a sensible way and play well to counter a strong strategy. Shocking!
     
  14. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah we're agreeing but sounding like we're not.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That said, putting out a long-range ARO isn't a horrible idea against bears, *unless* it's Spetznaz fodder, in which case there's no point.
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think the real problem is that warcors, a 3 point irregular model, have one of the better ARO weapons in the game.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Reasonable take. I miss Overclock something fierce.
     
  18. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I do think the 7 point repeater / flash pulse bots are also in a questionable cost / reward / intention design space, but I recognize that those have existed a lot longer than warcors have. Getting a regular order and a solid ARO from an 7 point model is more efficient than ~10 points for a basic LI with a rifle, which provides the same order, but no repeater coverage and no AROs anywhere near as good as a flash pulse. REMs being more efficient per point maybe made some sense back when you had to take a hacker in your list in order to be able to include them at all, but these days it's just silly.
     
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  19. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Flash pots bots are autoincludes for sure.

    Warcor, I'm not buying it - not in N4. They're not worth the precious list slot. Maybe if you're playing a faction that doesn't get the Liberto, and you don't have any other irregulars, you can take a Warcor and use command tokens to treat it like a regular order. Otherwise, the steep price you pay for a warcor is the slot, not the points.
     
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  20. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I find it hard to justify the flash bots in N4 personally, at least in the faction I play, I haven't found to field any in N4. I always included max AVA in every list in N3 though.

    On the other hand, I'm considering a warcor in the current HB list I'm toying with, shaving 5 points from the slot of a Daylami can upgrade a lot of stuff.
     
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