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Teach me how to Oniwaban

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Time Bandit, May 5, 2019.

  1. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Member

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    I'm having a grand time with my new JSA army, they're a really dynamic and aggressive army that's fun to play. They seem to have a lot of challenges built into their identity - limited long range support, two visors on flimsy users, poor hacking, etc., and seem to be made viable through their short range shooting, their CC and their infiltrators.

    To that end, the few times I've tried to run an Oniwaban I've done okay but sense that my deployment and decision making are both pretty poor with them. Can anyone shed some light on how best to use the Oniwaban?

    What's your decision making process on whether to risk deep infiltration?

    Do you place for ARO engagements, or purely active turn?

    Do you have any tips for placement?

    When do you trade with his templates?

    Is the SMG sub worth 4pts?

    How do you deal with visors?

    How do you deal with strong link-teams?

    What, realistically, should I expect my Oniwaban to achieve?

    What units partner well with an Oniwaban?

    Do you ever start as a camo token?

    Can you distill good Oniwaban play down into a few key principles?


    Any answers to these or other questions I haven't thought of would be most appreciated. I'll be practicing with him regularly in the hopes of making him a central feature of my lists. Currently the dude feels a bit like a luxury. Many thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Not going to claim that I'm any kind of expert on using Oniwaban but I'll at least answer how I use them.

    I will always deep infiltrate, only exception would be if my opponent has infiltrated/forward deployed something important and I can position myself to easily reach it without deep infiltrating.

    Purely active turn.

    Either close enough so that it can reach an important piece in one move or such as it has multiple options for paths.
    This depends a lot on if you have first or second turn. If you are going second you will have to predict where his important troops will be going and place it close to that area.

    Never? I don't think I have ever used the nanopulser. But I guess if it's against my opponents LT I might consider it.

    If I really can't find the last 4 points for a BSG I could consider it but in general the BSG is just too good to skip.

    Kill them in CC :) MSV2+ only really matters for Shinobu IMHO as they can see through her smoke. For a normal Oniwaban allowing the opponent to take long range shots at you is a mistake in the first place even if they don't have MSV.

    Kill off exposed members one at a time, or if they are bunched up put some BSG shots into them.

    Kill one important piece for the opponent or a bunch of cheerleaders and then force him to spend a bunch of orders to get rid of your oni.

    Only if it's my LT but I really don't like using an Oniwaban as the LT.

    It will die, just make sure you kill something important with it before it dies.
     
  3. Hos

    Hos New Member

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    Great thread!

    I'm still new, but my thinking is if I'm going first I definitely forward deploy and risk the roll, as I can then re-camo up and get him back into action. However if I'm going second I'm kinda leaning to not forward deploying, as my opponent is moving towards me (so deploying in my half is ok) and if I fail the roll, it might be problematic deploying safely touching an edge and surviving my opponents first turn.

    I'd always take the shotgun option unless I'm desperate for those 4 pts to fit in key elements for mission objectives.

    Question. Who does the Oniwaban prioritise? The enemy "rambo" worth lots of points, or say 3-4 cheerleaders bunched up (equal points but more orders that Rambo uses). I'm kinda thinking maybe it depends on the escape route, and go with the highest chance of Oniwaban surviving, so you can be a thorn in their side after the first attack.
     
  4. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    SMG has one advantage: You can go into SF instad of recamo.
    (If the enemy does not have to much MSV or templates,
    but those are always a problem...)
    With cover that is a -12 for the enemy to start with...
     
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  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    What's your decision making process on whether to risk deep infiltration?
    Terrain. If there is a spot that allows a short approach to a good target, it's worth going deep.


    Do you place for ARO engagements, or purely active turn?

    Only active turn, though as noted the Oniwaban SMG can be useful in Suppression Fire during ARO.


    Do you have any tips for placement?
    Hold the Oniwaban for my reserve deployment, and see if there is a good target for him to murder.


    When do you trade with his templates?
    Never, if you can avoid it!



    Is the SMG sub worth 4pts?
    Sometimes, because as noted you can trivially get to -12 to return fire in Suppression Fire. Whether that is worthwhile to you depends on the rest of your game plan.



    How do you deal with visors?
    Usually poorly, but ideally by not giving them any shots in their +3 range.



    How do you deal with strong link-teams?
    CC or BSG templates, especially if you can catch some of the squishy members of mixed links without exposing yourself to the strong members.



    What, realistically, should I expect my Oniwaban to achieve?
    One kill. Anything more than that is extra. So make sure that one kill is worth the points and the loss of one order. Don't attack something that isn't worth the loss, let it walk past the Oni and let someone else deal with it. Instead, wait for something worth the Oni, whether high-cost 1W trooper, HI, or even TAG.



    What units partner well with an Oniwaban?
    big guns. If you deploy a big gun someplace early and your opponent counter-deploys most of their army to avoid a big gun, you put the Oniwaban in a place where you can attack the opponent's forces 'bypassing' your big guns.



    Do you ever start as a camo token?
    Not in JSA. Did back when JSA was still part of YJ.



    Can you distill good Oniwaban play down into a few key principles?
    Expect it to die. Try to take something good with you when it does.
     
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  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Only in 2 limit cases
    1) Bunch of non-linked pressed warbands/cheerleaders with maybe 1 valuable target (may it be a possible Lt, a one-of-a-kind Specialist, ecc)
    2) Cheerleader Fireteam only if ALL of them are under the template

    In both of these cases, you need to walk the Oniwaban BEHIND the enemies, so it is order intensive.
    In case of Fireteam, remember that they can shoot back. You'll probably lose the Oniwaban, but 2 or 3 members should go down...
     
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  7. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Another advantage: Shock Ammo.
    If you kill some important one-wound trooper (for example, a specialist needed for taking objectives), it stays dead.
     
  8. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Member

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    Thanks so much everyone for the great replies so far, lots of detailed advice, perfect for a new user. Great advice on forcing your opponent's deployment by committing a big gun, then bypassing the flank that's out of LoF from his response, Section9. The BSG/SMG pros and cons are more complex than I first realised, hadn't thought of his role as a shock/ suppressive fire unit. Quite a nice tag-team option with the Ryuken for midfield control?

    I have a couple more questions to add to the list for everyone, if I may:

    if you fail the advanced infiltration roll, do you commit to getting your Oniwaban back into the middle of the board and recamo'd, which is a pretty order-intensive tactic, or do you hang him back as a reactive piece and basically accept the loss - or a third option?

    Do you run a redundancy infiltrator(s) when you run an Oniwaban? Like a KHD ninja as a back-up assassin/button pusher, or do you consider 2+ hidden units to be too much of an order-loss?

    Do you feel compelled to build in the 14-16 order range for Oniwaban lists?

    Would an O-Yoroi partner quite well with an Oniwaban sidekick? It fulfils the big gun + big threat role, making your opponent more likely to deploy in your Oniwaban's favour, I suppose?

    Thanks again, this is all very helpful.
     
  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    if you fail the advanced infiltration roll, do you commit to getting your Oniwaban back into the middle of the board and recamo'd, which is a pretty order-intensive tactic, or do you hang him back as a reactive piece and basically accept the loss - or a third option?
    I usually try to park him where an attacker needs to go, or where I'd put an Oniwaban to attack my own deployment.



    Do you run a redundancy infiltrator(s) when you run an Oniwaban? Like a KHD ninja as a back-up assassin/button pusher, or do you consider 2+ hidden units to be too much of an order-loss?

    I wouldn't run more than 2 hidden units, but I will run 2.


    Do you feel compelled to build in the 14-16 order range for Oniwaban lists?
    I don't, but 14-16 orders tends to be where my lists fall when I don't build DoTanko links (with or without an O-Yoroi), anyway.



    Would an O-Yoroi partner quite well with an Oniwaban sidekick? It fulfils the big gun + big threat role, making your opponent more likely to deploy in your Oniwaban's favour, I suppose?

    Should work well. The only downside is that TAGs draw ALL the fire. Even a little TAG like a Gecko draws fire far in excess of it's actual threat level.
     
  10. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    The O-Yoroi is good to lure your oppoenent into attacking it - it is big gun, but (sadly) not big threat...
    That is the karakuris right now -
    I sometimes really feel like the oppoenent is like 'oh no... maybe I can take the other flank and maybe avoid them somehow...'
    So, with the karakuri deployed first you might get a clear setup
    - either everybody is trying to avoid them,
    or the big attack pieces are deployed to face them.

    Another (completely different) thing to keep in mind: Sensors reveal hidden deployment as well!
    If you have to be aware of sensors/sniffers depends on your local meta and opponent/faction,
    but if you have second turn that might screw your onis badly!
    The treat of sensors clearly supports the deep infiltration,
    because scanning the middle-line is just too easy/obvious...
    And it favours the SF-SMG, because recamo might be just an order-trade.
     
  11. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Not much to add on top of the others but I usually start my Oni as a token if I go first as it gives me that extra order for a first turn Rambo and he's always a reserve drop
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    What's your decision making process on whether to risk deep infiltration?
    I must have at least 2 of the following: 1) going first, 2) have a good target (such as a weak cheerleader link, TAG, or obvious lt), 3) a place to deploy where it will be hard to dig me out.


    Do you place for ARO engagements, or purely active turn?
    The ARO TO BSG can be devastating to modern link teams with lots of weak links.


    Do you have any tips for placement?
    Flanking positions tend to be more easy to play when you are a newer player. You'll get more comfortable in the middle of the table as time goes on.


    When do you trade with his templates?
    When it is your reactive turn and you have a 0% chance of surviving a F2F roll. This happens more to the SMG in my opinion.


    Is the SMG sub worth 4pts?
    The two units have different purposes. The SMG is going to want to drop into suppressive and be annoying, but the BSG is much more efficient in the active turn due to template spilling.


    How do you deal with visors?
    Deploying on top of them is your best bet. Most long range visors are only going to have a pistol if you're underneath them.


    How do you deal with strong link-teams?
    In some cases you can just deploy on them and assassinate them on order one, especially MI using Forward Deployment. In other cases, you can just deploy far enough away you can ignore them while you MOV-MOV into the enemy DZ.


    What, realistically, should I expect my Oniwaban to achieve?
    Well, about 10% of your games you should bank on him doing absolutely nothing due to a failed roll. In the other 90%, he should either make the enemy's first turn a total wash due to how careful they need to manuever and the fact he can so easily take their link bonus, or he should easily kill 75+ points on turn 1.


    What units partner well with an Oniwaban?
    Oniwaban like high order counts but due to their low efficiency you want a second combat group to supplement. The BSG LT is worth considering since CoC is such a popular pick in JSA but it might be an obvious lt to anyone who knows JSA's army list.


    Do you ever start as a camo token?
    Almost never.


    Can you distill good Oniwaban play down into a few key principles?
    Focus on taking the least number of orders that generates the greatest result. This often means that your Oniwaban will not CC in a game. For me, this means I try to assassinate an LT about 50% of the time.
     
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  13. neostrider

    neostrider Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't she use their own order during the command where they leave hd?

    I use kitsune a lot and I recommend becoming good at the cc and SS2 rules. It can be order intensive but in 8 orders I've surgically removed 4/5 members of a costly link team. Here's a couple of tips:

    I think mm level 5 gets underestimated. If the link team is huddled for cover this can give you several attacks in 1 order and their bs shots back will usually be -9. (+3 range, -6 to, -6 mm5) which with her automatic +5 you really only have crits to worry about.

    One on one with mm3 you'll crit 45% of the time.

    The template could be order efficient but often those targets aren't work my oni's time and half the targets live just on armor. Know what your willing to give up the oni for and attack accordingly. I prefer squeezing up the walls and engaging targets 1 at a time. It could be my whole turn 1 but after the bodies my opponents get a short turn 1-3. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
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  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    If you want to fish for crits you should be using MA4, for Shinobu it has an ungodly 51% (1-(14/20) ^2) crit chance. In general though, MA3 is better than MA5 except if you are engaged with multiple enemies, and MA4 is always best if your surprrise attack reduces the enemy's CC to 20 or below.
     
  15. Remnar

    Remnar Well-Known Member

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    Relatively new to infintiy; can you break down in dumb guy terms how rolling two CC dice gets a 51% crit chance?
     
  16. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    With apologies if this breaks things down too simply; blame my maths-teaching day job!

    The calculation is actually based on the opposite of the probability she doesn't crit. Given she has MA25 (and adds 5 to her dice roll) and so crits on a roll of anything of 15 or over.

    The chance that she doesn't crit at all, is therefore if she rolls a 14 or less on both dice (rolling 2 for Martial Arts 4). The probability of not rolling a crit on one dice is 14/20; on 2 dice it is 14/20 * 14/20 (the probability of two successive events taking place is just the probabilities multiplied together). That is, she doesn't crit 196/400. Or, 49%.

    Thus, the chance that she rolls at least one crit is 51%.

    And, remember, thanks to her monofilament any crit she rolls kills her target, without making it unconscious. Unless it has Total Immunity...
     
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  17. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Of course, if you're taking down a fireteam, SSL2 removes surprise attack. But, not the MA5 mod.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    If your enemy is deploying poorly enough that you manage to use MA5 in the active turn without taking any other AROs, go for it.
     
  19. Remnar

    Remnar Well-Known Member

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    Perfect

    The point of failure was I missed the Attribute over 20 rule and we had been playing it wrong in regards to crits.

    Thank you for taking the time.
     
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  20. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    It's not necessarily that you use it to attack more than one model at a time, I think the point is that it imposes that -6 mod on a single target, on top of the visual mods.