Super Jump Impetuous

See the statement associated with the table: During an Impetuous Order, you cannot declare Skills or combinations of Skills not in the Impetuous Order Table.

Note “you cannot declare ... combinations of Skills not in the Impetuous Order Table.”

So, no, you’re not allowed to declare Jump+whatever.

Edit: And you probably can’t even use Super Jump to move further during the Impetuous Order due to:
“In this case, as it would when using Move, the movement declared with Climb or Jump must be the entirety of the first value of the trooper's MOV, and must be directed towards the nearest enemy figure, or towards the enemy Deployment Zone without retreating unless forced to by terrain.”

 

I hope N4 takes the opportunity to fix the weird differences between super jump and climbing plus (including naming conventions).

Do we want "Super climb" or "Jumping plus?"

 

So strictest RAW, a McMurder can only Move+Move 10" or Jump 6".

* goes back to playing Jump + BS Attack etc is a legal Impetuous declaration *

 

If you want to argue strictest RAW, then a Jump of 6" to 10" is the correct answer. "must be the entirety" doesn't actually limit the upper bounds, but instead relies on other rules such as General Movement Rules to limit the upper bounds but Super-Jump increases the upper bound.

But besides that, strictest possible RAW gets weird, illustrating as such; "The Common Skill Move is mandatory in all Impetuous Orders, where it works in a specific and limited way" so you're not able to declare Jump, after all, nor Climb, nor Airborne Deployment.

However, I think it's ill-adviced to add skill combinations to the list in a tournament environment as a measure to fix it as this messes with balance. Plus it also raises questions like "so I get to add <mission specific skill> to this list" or "then I get to Discover". Don't get me wrong, I think those are valid things to add, but it's a discussion I'd rather not have in conjunction with ITS tournaments and it's not nearly as necessary to have them as it is to have the Door Conversation, IMO.

For N4 I think the best way to describe what Impetuous movement entails to be "The Impetuous trooper must declare at least one Short Movement Skill which has to bring the trooper the farthest distance towards the closest enemy, if there are several Short Movement Skills that would bring the trooper an equal distance the player gets to decide which one to choose. In the case where an unmodified Climb or Jump skill would bring the trooper closer, the trooper must declare a Climb or Jump skill instead". That's more for N4, of course, but I think they generally speaking made Impetuous more complicated than necessary.

There's sufficient difference between the two that neither will work unless you did extensive clean up. Jumping doesn't allow cover, but if you change Jumping so that a trooper can essentially walk in the air things get weird, particularly when you remember that it removes parabolic trajectories and that a Jump+ would be able to make zig-zag "jumps" like they had a jet pack or something.
Meanwhile Super-Climb would need to handle the issues of where the skill was intended to allow a trooper to jump onto a climb-surface in a way that normal troopers could not, not to mention that Jumping or Climbing doesn't allow shots the way Climb+ currently does.

All in all, if necessary to equate the two, I think the least issues would be had by making Super-Climb because it is a skill that would better fit permissive rules design (as a skill it would be "you can also do these things" whereas Jump+ would be "you can do loads of things except this list").

 

Minor correction - the Impetuous Order text goes on to say that you can replace the mandatory Move+X with Jump/Climb/Airborne Deployment etc.

So yes, by the strictest possible RAW, you're allowed to declare those Skills.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with the rest of the post.

EDIT

As shown by the Impetuous Order Chart, an Impetuous (or Extremely Impetuous) trooper can substitute the combination of the mandatory Common Skill Move + [allowed Skill] for the Entire Order Skills Climb or Jump if these are necessary to fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy.

 

I'm getting confused, so I apologize if this has already been said. I'm going to try to simplify. This is all by "the strictest possible RAW" :-) I think this is the consensus (?):

1. McM can never declare a short movement Jump, because that isn't one of the options in the impetuous table.

2. If he declares a whole order Jump, he must get as close as possible to the nearest enemy. This will usually mean going a full 10", unless he reaches b2b with the enemy in less than 10" (or if some unusual terrain forces him to backtrack).

3. If he's on open ground, then declaring Mov-Mov would also get him 10" closer to the enemy. Therefore, he has the option to declare his first short skill as Mov and go 6". For the purpose of counting the shortest route, we assume he's going to move another 4". However he doesn't have to actually declare a second Mov. He can stop after 6" and do something else, like any impetuous unit.

4. If he would get closer to the enemy by Mov-Moving 10" (e.g. there's a tall, narrow terrain piece that he wants to go around instead of jumping over), then he must declare Mov and only has to go 6".

5. If he would get closer to the nearest enemy by Jumping 10" (e.g. there's a building in the way that he can jump over more quickly than going around), then he must declare Jump and it must be a whole order that goes the full 10".

Does that seem right? I hope it helps clarify the discussion :-)

The question in the other thread came up in the context of point 5. It potentially makes McM less useful, since he will frequently have to declare whole order Jumps and eat free AROs.

 

So is it legal for McMurrough to declare Jump + Attack/Dodge with his impetous order or not?

 

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Fury

 

IJW wasn't addressing that specifically in the post you quote but...
Simple answer: No.
Complicated answer: You can play with house rules to make this possible. You wouldn't be alone in doing so. Just clear it with your opponent/meta first!

 

Well, that's complicated :D
We have an upcoming Satellite with SoF so the amount of rabid dogs on the tables will be collosal, so i am trying to figure out some "arguable" moments of the rules and to make them clear.
P.S. @dhellfox yeah, i'm aware of how to use the Wiki, but for some players in our community RAW is not enough, especially in discussing the rules without clear "Yes" or "No" answer in the forum.
That's why i'm appealing to @ijw

 

I agree. This one would particularly benefit from a ruling from @ijw, for two reasons. (1) Without an @ijw ruling, there's no way to predict which way any particular TO will rule - it could go either way. (2) It's too important a question to leave to the day of the tournament and see which way it falls out. Especially if SoF is on.

 

Plugging IJW's most recent answer on the topic in here, so that you can click the tiny arrow to go to the post for context and verification:

 

Very nice reading of the rules but...

From Fury:

"As shown by the Impetuous Order Chart, an Impetuous (or Extremely Impetuous) trooper can substitute the combination of the mandatory Common Skill Move + [allowed Skill] for the Entire Order Skills Climb or Jump if these are necessary to fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy.

In this case, as it would when using Move, the movement declared with Climb or Jump must be the entirety of the first value of the trooper's MOV, and must be directed towards the nearest enemy figure, or towards the enemy Deployment Zone without retreating unless forced to by terrain."

From super-jump:

"This Special Skill alters the user's Jump Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill."

So if you want to be RAW super-jump user won't jump at all.

And:

"Super-Jump allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Jump + BS Attack, for example) while jumping in the air."

Why do we ignore this part?

Would be nice to learn the intent of the rules from CB before crying around that everybody plays it wrong.

 

I don't think the intent is really in question. Impetuous troopers are basically suicidal in their rage attempting to get to their targets as fast as possible.

If you read the first part of this quote: "In this case, as it would when using Move, the movement declared with Climb or Jump must be the entirety of the first value of the trooper's MOV, and must be directed towards the nearest enemy figure, or towards the enemy Deployment Zone without retreating unless forced to by terrain" you realize that it's simply telling you that you must move as far as possible. A SJ trooper can move more than their first MOV value with a full order jump, and so must do so.

As for why we ignore the allowance of SJ troopers to use other skills in mid air... we aren't. We are simply applying the further restrictions on impetuous orders. It's the same as asking why we are ignoring the part of the rules that allows a trooper to declare discover + BS attack for an impetuous trooper. The impetuous rule doesn't allow that combination of skills during an impetuous order.

 

Why is that? You don't have to use both of your movements if you don't have SJ.

If this is a rules question then it would be nice to learn the intent of the rule because it clearly doesn't have and answer how a SJ trooper should do his impetuous.

 

As I mentioned, it's because of the part I bolded in the quote. It's not definitive, but I believe the intent is fairly plain. The list of skills allows a Move + something, but not a Jump + something. Changing Jump from an entire order to a short movement skill doesn't change that. And since a full order Jump uses both MOV values, and doing a Move + Move expressly requires you move the full amount, I see a parallel.

I'm not saying that you should believe me, but I don't think the intent of the Impetuous Orders is much in doubt, and if we use that intent, the result is clear. It would be nice to have a ruling for SJ during an Impetuous Order, however... on that I agree.

 

We still hit the you only need to Entire Order Jump if you can't Move towards the target clause.

It's jumping off buildings in reverse.

"A trooper using an Impetuous Order can move a distance shorter than the maximum only if he reaches base contact with an enemy, or if he enters an area of Special Terrain that impairs his Movement or forces him to declare Jump or Climb in order to keep moving."

 

No it doesn't. It says you can replace it with the Entire Order skill, not the Short Skill version.