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Sun Tze

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by NoahScape, Feb 18, 2021.

  1. NoahScape

    NoahScape Member

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    So I’ve been playing around with Sun Tze and he just doesn’t earn his points in my opinion regardless of the kit I choose for him. It’s even worse when you compare him to other characters/models in the same vein, IE hector.

    I’m not saying he should be hector, but it was the first thing that came to mind.

    His HI profile is either a boarding shotgun or a multi rifle. He doesn’t really want to get close because his CC is god awful, and shooting isn’t great because he’s only BS 12 without MSV or any other offensive ability I can see. He’s armor 4, bts 6 2 wounds with nwi and ignores all ammo. Not saying that’s bad, just not worth 60 plus points when I stack him up with other things I can take.

    The sniper version is ok, but he won’t beat other snipers. If I want a sniper there are just better options. He has msv1, but no msv himself. BS 14, which is good, but that’s it.

    He just feels too expensive for what he offers and I didn’t know if others felt the same way, or am I using him incorrectly? What changes does he need to make him viable?
     
  2. NoahScape

    NoahScape Member

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    I meant to say he has MSV 1 but no mimetism himself
     
  3. NoahScape

    NoahScape Member

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    My thoughts are either point reduction, or some added/different weapons.

    maybe x visor on the marksmen class with mimetism -3. He would then ignore range mods, and be right in line with most other snipers only not having camo.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, agreed and agreed.

    He's been slightly nerfed compared to N3 where he also had Bioimmunity baked in and back then the actual performance on the HI version was a bit of a beast, even though crits pierced through him. Costly compared to most other HI, but did pack a punch if your opponent wasn't prepared for an ARM 6 shotgun/MRifle that didn't care about AP coming their way.
    Now he's ARM 4 but crits no longer perforate him. It's not an even trade then and it's not an even trade now.

    Unfortunately, the issue is that he's paying So Very Much for WIP 17 and the extra Command Token, and Strategos, while cheaper than those previous two, is also very costly. I'm saying he should drop in points, without a doubt, but that the heavy infantry version does have some performance to contribute. 45 to 50 seems to be about where he should be. Possibly lower if you want to apply an incentive to run him.
    At his current cost, I would expect Bioimmunity and Veteran (i.e. kind of like in N3).

    When it comes to the sniper I think it's harder. There's a lot of points invested in a mediocre sniper. With a cost on par with Total Reaction Atalanta, the reduced comparable performance versus the gain in lieutenantship is a fair price, but the unit concept is flawed. This is an obvious lieutenant designed to lose less instead of win more. You are incentivised to not spend orders on him and punished for using him as an ARO piece.
    I don't think a return to X-visor (he used to have the game's only X-visor L2 which reduced negative range mods of up to -6 to 0) is the way to go as it isn't very useful for a sniper, but Sixth Sense would be thematic to the faction and Mimetism-3 would be thematic to SunV1 and an exotic pistol would not be too much to ask.

    Last but not least I think both versions with Specialist Operative would be both fair and funny. Funny because WIP 17 specialist, fair because it's your freakin' LT and on top of your opponent's target list so if you get him close to an objective you deserve it!
     
  5. NoahScape

    NoahScape Member

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    I never played N3 so I wasn't aware of his previous loadouts. I was just thinking xvisor because it seemed to make sense combined with MSV1.

    I would suggest 2 LT tokens considering he is a master of strategy and the "art of war". Not sure what else can be done to add to that persona.
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The HI profile is unplayable without Veteran.

    He was viable last edition, he's fucking unplayable garbage in N4. Leave him on the shelf with Qiang Gao.
     
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  7. NoahScape

    NoahScape Member

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    I'm not sure I would go as far as unplayable garbage, but he's not very good to really bad when compared to other models you can take instead of him for those points.
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    He's straight up unplayable. You're placing a hacking vulnerable LT on the table with no ability to defend itself from hackers. When that LT gets isolated you lose all the benefits of Strategos you were paying for and you cannot get them back without throwing your army into loss of LT to transfer the LT status back to Sun Tze, which is for obvious reasons not a plausible plan.

    This isn't an issue for Sun Tze alone, the power creep (explosion really) of hacking makes a great number of hacking (or guided missile) vulnerable LTs a risky choice, but those who pay for and are built around LT specific skills such as Strategos and Inspiring Leadership are the worst affected.

    As I was discussing with a local CA player to counteract this with the Avatar rather than designing his two tournament lists for mission splits, he should design them to handle hacking/non hacking based enemies. CA can get away with this because the Avatar is so overtuned to the point of near insanity. The amount of carnage an Avatar can cause as a BS15 +1 damage Mimetic -6 Multi HMG that brings 4 orders to the army list largely offsets the downside of having a list that might not be particularly well constructed to handle a specific mission.

    Sun Tze is basically the complete opposite of that overtuned monstrosity. He is nothing but an active liability in any list you place him into.
     
    #8 Triumph, Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  9. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Sun Tze is completely over costed trash now. One of the few infinity troopers to be outright bad. There are very few profiles in the game that hurt your list just by their inclusion like Sunny does, let alone for such a pathetic payoff.

    Leave him far away from any gaming table until he gets a much needed overhaul.
     
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  10. NoahScape

    NoahScape Member

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    Well gents, I'm convinced. He's trash. I'll stop trying to make him work. You guys had great arguments.
     
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  11. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    This thread has convinced me to try out Sun Tze in vanilla and ISS. Specifically, the MULTI Rifle profile.

    Comparing him to other ISS LT options...

    Celestial Guard (13): Squishy WIP 14.
    Primary selling point: Cheap.
    Role: Tactical cowardice unbecoming of an officer in service to the Emperor.

    Zhanying (21 or 26): Semi-squishy toolbox WIP 13.
    Primary selling point: Toolbox or HMG that can join Wu Ming or host a Hsien.
    Role: Overlooked toolbox or aggressive LT, because he's so squishy compared to other aggressive LTs.

    Deva (23-27): Less squishy WIP 15, can Haris with Devas, Dakinis, and Wildcards. Optional Sensor or Devabot profiles.
    Primary selling point: Haris filler or toolbox, high WIP.
    Role: Best balance of cost, WIP, and features for non-HI ISS LT. But ALEPH, hahaha.

    Adil Crane (43): Very tough WIP 13 specialist LT, immune to ISO, brings sensor and good CC.
    Primary selling point: Durable specialist LT is also the cheapest HI LT.
    Role: Ride along with FT into midfield and then pursue Objectives while being a mediocre but resilient LT.

    Crane (46-49): Tough WIP 14 with x-visor, choice of sensor multi rifle or spitfire.
    Primary selling point: Aggressive wildcard LT gunfighter.
    Role: Waste LT orders because no NCO in ISS, run solo but lose the advantages of FT, or advance with FT then break out.

    Sun Tze v2 (51): MSV1 BS 14 WIP 17 Strategos L2 +1 Command Token LT.
    Primary selling point: Cheaper than a Hsien, BS 14 with MSV and a MULTI Sniper.
    Role: Discover+Shoot with really good numbers while bringing Strategos yadda yadda yadda.

    Hsien (53-55): Fast, tough MSV2 BS 14 WIP 14; options are HMG, Tinbot, or LT2 specialist profiles.
    Primary selling point: Great aggressive solo LT.
    Role: Spend LT orders to gunfight, optionally while working on Objectives. Can FT, but if the LT probably maybe don't.

    Sun Tze (60-62): Extremely tough WIP 17 Strategos L2 +1 Command Token LT.
    Primary selling point: ARM 4 BTS 6 Total Immunity + WIP 17 for flash pulse (and Intuitive Nanopulsers) and Mimetism -3.
    Role: Make Triumph sadgry?

    ISS is full of aggressive LTs designed to be used actively (and mostly solo since there's no NCO and the LT orders go to waste if you're in a link and don't want to break it). None has ARM/BTS higher than 4/6. The (timid) alternatives are the Celestial Guard, Sensor Zhanying, and Deva.

    The only heavy infantry LT options more resistant than Sun Tze to being bricked/Spotlighted by a hacker are a Tinbot Hsien (only 9 points cheaper), or a Crane linked to a 31 point Wu Ming—and the Crane can't spend the LT order without breaking that link, which costs a minimum of 77 points. You're almost better off taking an EVO bot and putting Fairy Dust up on all your Heavy Infantry at once.

    Sunny T's heavy infantry incarnation is functionally a Mowang MULTI Rifle LT...but 6-2 instead of 4-4 MOV, Total Immunity, a WIP 17 Flash Pulse instead of Flammenspeer, WIP 17 Intuitive Nanopulsers, and his LT order becomes a regular order in a sectorial with no NCO. He can Reset out of Carbonite on 14, Oblivion on 8, and that's presuming either gets through his native WIP 17 Reset and BTS 6, plus Fairy Dust if you aren't going second. He can complete any classifieds that can be done by HI, general troops, or Veteran Troops (thanks to Long Service and being a character) and any Objectives that don't require a Specialist (such as controlling antennas or tech-coffins in Acquisition). He brings an extra Command Token to spend on shuffling fireteams, coordinating orders, flipping orders to Regular, or starting someone in Suppressive, and the extra doesn't go away if he buys the farm.

    If you can get him into the midfield, he can be parked in Suppressive in cover for a net -9 MOD to hit him (Sup + Mim + Cover) dealing out either AP or Shock if he hits, and effectively ARM 7 BTS 9 plus TI. If only he had MSV1...

    You can also compare HI Sunny to a Bronze MULTI Rifle from Starmada (52 pts) - very similar profile but slower, better in CC, and linkable. Not a LT though, so you'd still have to shell out 12 points and 1 SWC to tack on a Kappa LT.

    So, anyway, yeah. I get that people don't like Sun Tze. But in a sectorial that actively encourages you to push your LT into the midfield as a gunfighter or in a fireteam, he's the tanky option that also brings extra leadership stuff to the table. I'mma stick him in some lists.
     
    #11 wes-o-matic, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I think you actually make a better argument for ISS leadership options being weak overall. All of them are fairly obvious (espesially with open Lt WIP, sorry Adil) and have a hard time mitigating their considerable vulnerabilities without also compromising on the aggression you kind of come to expect from them.
     
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  13. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Yeah, I think it's an intentional "feature" of the sectorial, sort of like how Nomads tend to have obvious (and mostly squishy) LTs. I actually think the more interesting question is what to put in an ISS list to counter things like Nomads or CA planning to lob pitchers into your DZ.

    Sun Tze as your LT means better odds of winning the initial roll (in which case go first, apply Fairy Dust, profit) and also holding back at least two reserves so even if you have to deploy first you have counter-deployment flexibility. Holding Sunny himself back as one of those might be good, but he can also be bait.

    An option would be the SMG (optionally hacker) Ninja deployed in suppression on the midline, or past it if you're feeling brave about the PH-3 roll. You've got the extra command token to spare for that.

    You could also hold some long-range corner guards back as your reserves to cover a couple of long firelanes:
    • AVA 3 Husong
    • HRL Wu-Ming and/or ML Zhanying in a Haris or Core
    • Bao MSV2 MULTI Sniper in a Haris (which you can treat as expendable if the other two members are wildcards you want to shift into a different FT anyway)
    • Son-Bae?
    If you've got a Ninja FO or Kanren FO in the midfield, they can ARO with Forward Observe to make subsequent BS Attack AROs more effective, or boost the threat factor of a Son-Bae.

    I know Chain of Command isn't everyone's favorite solution, but the Minelayer Pheasant brings madtraps, a BSG, and E/Mitter to your DZ for not much more than a Zhanying with madtraps, and can be filler in a starting Haris with a Bao MSR and any wildcard.
     
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  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I don’t mind that he lost his ability to chose saves.
    However, he isn’t playable without Veteran, not with that price tag.

    Also, he needs to lose 10 points.
    The loss of the ability to deny reserves is massive and was a very important feature on him
     
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  15. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    The HI version is playable, just handicapped by being way overcosted for what his capability is.

    You lose an order or a filler trooper by playing him, and in ISS you don't gain a ton of advantage placing 2 reserves.

    Veteran would be a good step towards a fix, like others said above. Drop his WIP by 1, spend the points on Veteran, job done. He'd also be great fun in Hunting Party and Decapitation, instead of a massive vulnerability.
     
  16. Amusedbymuse

    Amusedbymuse Well-Known Member

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    For HI, 2 of his skills got nerfed, hackable and Arm were supposed to grant discounts, and yet BSG is still the same price as n3. He is at least 10 points over of what he should be. Getting Lt+1, veteran and bioimmunity while dropping multi rifle to 60 should be completely balanced. In ISS some sort of limited fire team access could be helpful.
    MI is already paying for msv 14 bs and MSR, but he is not good enough shooter to use either as Aro or active. The smallest thing he should get is sixth sense preferably by joining some cores in ISS to make him a viable shooter. Again Lt+1 would help ISS newfound very limited order economy since edition change. Mimetism-3 is as always easy fix but considering ISS extremely limited access to mimetic units this would be way more useful that usual. With these changes 50 points for MI is something I could see myself paying t least to test it.
     
  17. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    The Marksman would be good if he had marksmanship! He needs at least something to make me look at him as more than just an expensive Lt.
     
  18. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    For Vanilla, I'll always choose a LT2 with camostate over a LT1 without. Being a HI does not help to stay the LT in this meta also. Too often has a pitcher landed next to my DZ and bricked my HIs.
    I'd consider Sun with either of these skills added:
    - LT2 (to still make use of Krit or HacTao)
    - Veteran (no isolation)
    - Inspiring Leadership (because Monks are hard to fit in a 15 slot list)
     
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  19. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Tbh, sun has always been a very bad option, hes expensive in an already expensive army and he has the added vulnerability of being a super lieutenant in a game where there's major punishment for losing your lt.
     
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  20. Zhōu Yú

    Zhōu Yú Member

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    Agreed, And add, that all ChoC options are either obvoious and vulnerable or expensive again(in already expensive army with over expensive lieut) or even both. Mb Kanren/TianGou ChoC profile will fix vunerability of the Sun choice to be just expensive, but curently it's expensive AND too risky to play
     
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